I don't believe that Quarry KO'd Norton in sparring

I don't know what Norton was thinking vs Shavers TBH, he just sat on the ropes allowing Shavers to wail away at him.

Vs Foreman atleast Norton used some movement and hit Foreman with a few decent punches in a somewhat competitive 1st round.

 

First it looked like to me, he was trying to counterpunch Shavers but when he couldn't keep up, he tried to do sort of a rope a dope imo. That's why I say he froze. He didn't know what he wanted to do, and didn't have an actual plan.

 

Thanks for the well thought out response and compliment Swag, much appreciated.

Personally I wouldn't discount prime Norton against Shavers or Cooney. I'm not sure I'd favour him, but was interested in the perspective of someone who did and who has probably watched more of him, and this HW era in general, than I have, and your response did not disappoint. Thanks again.

 

Maybe he saw the Lyle vs Shavers bout and thought he could fight off the ropes to tire Shavers out. Problem was, he wasn't as tough as Lyle and just froze when he got badly hurt.

 

In his commentary Cosell referenced his prefight discussion with Norton re strategy.

It seems Ken was looking to allow Earnie to tire himself out - and laying on the ropes, ala the rope a dope, was meant to lend itself to that strategy.

Crazy? Yes, but it was preconceived. Interesting that Norton was actually landing some heavy leather himself until Earnie’s left hook struck through the accomodating gap in Ken’s cross armed defence. Once that got home, it was a slippery slope for Ken thereafter.

Even when Earnie faced the originator of the rope a dope, Ali, Muhammad himself got off the ropes quick smart after tasting some power shots - Earnie was very good at picking his power shots with an opponent right in front of him, back to the ropes, trying to cover up.

 

I’ll just repeat the question (as above) Klomp @klompton2 but of course you don’t have to answer.

I find it to be a narrow and superficial address to simply say that Norton NEVER won the title in the ring without considering the belief of many that Norton did, in all truth, beat Ali in the rubber match - some going so far as to say it was a robbery.

At least imo, among many, for all intents and purposes, Norton won that fight and should’ve won the title - IN THE RING.

It certainly wasn’t as if Norton didn’t rise to the occasion with the Big Brass Ring up for grabs. The argument that Norton “blew” the fight by not going out to win the 15th round is a false positive imo. Ken had already established an unassailable lead.

I objectively believe that Norton beat Young in a close fight - but I note that you labelled it as a “gift” decision - but by omission, should I assume that Ali himself didn’t receive a “gift” decision over Norton and that you in fact believe Ali won that fight?

I’m just curious as to who you thought won that fight, the Ali-Norton rubber, - and by what margin.

 

He'll never answer you because he's a no nothing and a coward. He may have a lot of rare footage, but he doesn't see ****. 99% of the time in a H2H his posts consists of "Who did so and so beat in order for him to be the favorite over so and so". It's because he's too stupid, to actually analyze what both participates bring to the table.

 

It would be interesting to hear Klomp’s opinion on that point of contention.

Btw Swag, try not to mince your words so much - just tell me what you really think in future.

 

Are you asking if I believe Norton was robbed against Ali? I dont. The third fight was close, could have gone either, but wasnt a robbery. Norton didnt convincingly beat Ali. Frankly I thought Young beat Norton (and Ali) more convincingly than Norton supposedly beating Ali. Sorry, just never been impressed by the guy. He fought in the deepest era of the division and somehow missed out on a ton of big name fights. Given what I know about him turning down several offers from Aileen Eaton to fight Quarry (what originally started this thread) and taking into account his shaky chin its not hard to see that he was carefully matched and that resulted in a pretty weak resume for a guy who somehow made it to the HOF and yes even remaining the only HW champion to never win a title fight.

 

Shouldnt you be making love to your cleveland williams blowup doll? Or do you just generally slobber all over any muscular HW with meager accomplishments?

 

Sure, that’s exactly what I was asking - who you thought won - and by what margin.

Fair enough if you believe the rubber could’ve gone either way - obviously I don’t but that still allows for some folks justifiably believing that Norton did beat Ali for the title.

Due respect but you still haven’t said who you thought won - your “could’ve gone either way” is duly noted and deferential to alternate opinions but that doesn’t really tell me who you personally think actually won the fight.

Gun to head - who did you have winning?

It’s a reasonable argument to say that the motive behind what I saw as blatantly official bias toward Ali at Yankee Stadium was that they didn’t want lose or let go of the sport’s main attraction.

Last time I scored it - I think I had it 10-5 Norton or worst case, 9-6 Norton. A very clear win.

For whatever it’s worth, and it maybe nothing, Ali clearly said “Yeah, I lost” after the fight and his post fight body language, imo, was that of a man who thought he had lost the fight.

Of course that’s not hard evidence in its own right but perhaps still worth mentioning.

I also disagree with the general assessment of Norton being overrated and the claim that his rep. was only based on his successes against Ali or that those successes against Ali came down to mere, happenstance stylistic advantage.

I think I’ve probably already said enough previously in regards to the merits of Ken’s “Non Ali” career.

Broadly, I happened upon a recent interview with Larry Holmes re Norton and their fight - an official razor thin loss for Norton - and a fight that was imo, in all truth, as close as you can get to a draw.

Another excellent performance against an ATG who didn’t fight like Ali - what are the odds of an “overrated”, mediocre fighter (and past his prime) performing to such a high level and running it so close against another ATG?

Anyway, Holmes notably affords Norton excellent durability and power of punch.

Also, this claim of Larry being a “one armed” fighter vs Norton should really be put to bed -

Larry makes it clear his left arm was fine by fight time and that he was pumping the jab like there no tomorrow - which can be plainly seen on film, with or without Holmes’ testimony.

However, in the interview, Larry does veer off from being a perfectly credible witness when he says he beat Norton clearly, winning every round.

I’ll cherry pick that one claim out and say that’s the only part Larry got wrong. Otherwise, I give Larry a 95% pass on the exam.

[url]https://www.sportingnews.com/au/amp/boxing/news/larry-holmes-ken-norton-fight-ranks-my-sweetest-victory/qazy0ybywi0c9b5jkwodrjfj[/url]

 

@Pugguy My apologies, I forgot to mention his juvenile homophobic remarks and his obsession with The Big Cat. Continuing to bring him up in threads that have nothing to do with him then proceed to accuse others of obsessing over him. Someone should tell this guy, their's more to boxing than Cleveland Williams.

 

No apology required Swag.

 

I think Ali won the third Norton fight. I think 10-5 for Norton is CRAZY. I also think (and ypu can search old posts to see my thoughts on this) that outside of a few rounds Holmes controlled Norton easily (with a torn bicep). Ive always thought that fight was overrated barring a few close, ebb and flow rounds. Call it razor thin? No. When Holmes elected to box he had that fight well in hand.

Regardless, Ive spoken to more than one person who was there when Quarry knocked Norton out cold at the Main Street Gym and I know for a fact that Norton turned down several offers to face Quarry until he was past his prime. Believe it or not, make of it what you will, but if Norton didnt like Quarry and had animosity toward him and Quarry felt he was being ducked then thst could be why.