Who Is The Best Fighter That "Comeback Foreman '', Could Have Possibly Beat?

Interesting.

Im curious, do you think there is no correlation between mass/size and punch resistance full stop? I.e. a 105lbs MW has has an equal chance of having better punch resistance than a 270lbs HW than vice versa?

Or do you just believe that mass/size only becomes irrelevant when it's the same fighter at different weights/sizes?

 

I think that there is a lose correlation between mass and chin, when comparing different fighters.

An individual fighters chin improves as they gain experience, and it probably also improves if they don't have to make a weight cut.

I don't think that it improves because they add body mass.

I think that Mickey Walker always had a better chin than Primo Carnera.

I think that James Toney always had a better chin than Wladamir Klitschko.

I also think that chins are basically born.

 

Thank you.

I agree with some of what you say.

A loose correlation between mass and chin in different fighters.....as in all other things being equal a much heavier fighter would have a slightly better chin than one much lighter. Ok, I think we both agree that:

1) There is more than a loose difference between an average puncher and Jimmy Wilde. There's a huge difference; and
2) Wlad had relatively poor punch resistance

If I'm following your logic properly, then you believe Wilde had the capability to KO Wlad? He KO'd most of the Flyweights he boxed and if there's only a "loose" correlation between mass and punch resistance, I.e. not much difference between a Fly and HW, just a little on average, then surely that's offset by the huge impacts of the above 2 points?

 

Forget about Wilde and Wlad, because the size difference is enormous there.

I think that chins sometimes carry up better than power.

It's not so much that Toney woudl stop Wald, as Toney woudl hold up impressively under Wlad's power.

What I am saying, is that there are middleweights with pretty sick chins at heavyweight.

Very few middleweights whose power stacks up at heavyweight.

 

So more than a loose correlation between mass and punch resistance. I'm glad we agree there.

You raise an interesting point on chins carrying up better than power. By definition, if a former MWs power is substantially less effective when at HW, its because HW's punch resistance is typically substantially more effective than MWs.

 

Yes Ali was in Frazier's zip code as a puncher.
Ali could hit hard when he set down on things, & Frazier hit harder but it was that & accumulation-not instant KO's.
Foreman had Cooney Lyle & Williams as the hardest punchers-Liston may never have gone all out on his sparring.
Those guys are way above Ali in punshing power.

Frazier hit harder, but not that much harder-when Ali was really winging them in.
Which he did often in their fights.

EDIT: Sorry gotta contend with another point of your Janitor.
Yes there is a large correlation between mass & chin.

I think chins are largely born-but can be improved to some extent.
When you say that Walker always had a better chin than Carnera-I hope you mean for their size & division?
Remember a chin does *not* mean how good you are at avoding KO's.
If you avoid taking much punishment due to defense, speed, minimizing impact, getting the other man first etc...
That does not at all measure chin.
If Walker had a better chin than Carnera, he would not have gone down as much when absorbing all those massive flush shots against Primo-when I dunno how many more Kds he could absorb, maybe many...
But I do NOT see Walker getting up from all those shots!

Also when you talk about chin carrying up more than power-maybe so.
If so I dunno it is a dramatic difference.

But more importantly, understand that "carrying up" tends to mean what the effect is-offensive & defensive-against those who tend to have more power & chin.

Toney in absolute terms MUST HAVE improved his chin as he got larger-& the 'roids helped with that.
So with any significant increase in size, we expect the guy can improve, but not enough so they are as good in power & chin relative to their new division!

 

I will just say that Frazier stopped nearly all their common opponents more quickly, and leave it at that.

I think that Walkers chin would have lost a little because of the weight cut he made at welterweight.

However if we take that version of Walker and put him in a catchweight fight, I don't think that he is going to be less durable than heavyweight Walker.

I think that speed kills to a certain extent, and that when a durable fighter moves up a weight class, they find the punches a bit easier to anticipate.

 

Yes Frazier stopped common opponents faster, but that is likely due to high volune power punches, while Ali tended to jab giys silly-& of course not "kill the body & the head will die". Frazier hit harder, we just disagree that it is such a dramatic difference.

But you really feel that a WW Walker would last as well as HW Walker?!
Granted since he was not a natural HW, someone with a bigger bone structure, more height could likely have more potential for chin & power improvement-but you believe that no increase of muscle &/or fatr above WW would gain him more punch resistence, even if he sacraficed speed & endurance?

And again, I am asking you-do you believe that the real Jimmy Walker had better, or even as good, punch resistance as Primo Carnero?
In an absolute sense.

 

Then we move on.

You have to ask what would have changed between Welterweight Walker, and heavyweight Walker.

He will have taken more punches to the head for one thing.

He doesn't have to make a weight cut, but we are excusing him that.

He is bigger, but most of the mass that he has gained, is probably either water or adipose tissue.

Yes I think that Walker's punch resistance was probably better than Carnera's in an absolute sense.

 

There's another direction you could go with your line of inquiry, though:

Wilde couldn't eat himself into becoming a heavyweight puncher. Nor could he eat himself into acquiring a heavyweight chin.

Apply that to Toney and Walker, and their careers make some sense.

Doing that, though, also suggests that they started with most of their heavyweight level chins already there.

 

Tbf, without intending to, Janitor supported my point more effectively than that line of enquiry, when he went on to post MW chins carry well up to HW, but their power does not.

Why would a former MWs power be less effective at HW than it was MW, except because HWs typically have better punch resistance? And why else would that be, except that there is a correlation between mass and punch resistance?

So, once we've established that, all other factors being equal, a bigger fighter will have better punch resistance than a different smaller a fighter, we are into the realms of absurdity if we are to postulate why, all other factors being equal, the same fighter adding substantial functional mass and size, whilst remaining in elite fighting shape, wouldn't have a positive impact on their punch resistance.

The above doesn't prove Foreman had a better chin in his 2nd career. Its possible his advanced age and further trauma more than offset the benefits of his increased size/mass. I'd guess not, but it's possible.

It doesn't mean, for e.g., that Amir Khan could ever have better punch resistance than Kid Gavilan, even in absolute terms, regardless of how much size he gained. I don't think he could.

And finally, whilst I fully accept both Mickey Walker and James Toney had iron chins at their original weights, better even than some HWs at those respective weights, the additional size and mass they gained will have benefited their punch resistance.

Frankly, I consider that there is a clear correlation between mass/size and punch resistance, to be not just reasonably irrefutable, but pretty damn obvious, too.

 

There's a relationship between size and durability. There's probably also a relationship between bulking up and increasing durability.

I haven't ever seen people on BF24 citing good sources on the details beyond that rough observation, though. How much fat versus muscle helps, whether original frame makes a difference, how much of a change you see because of increased size, etc.

You can at least get a sense of power potential by looking at differences in (e.g.) Olympic weightlifting at different sizes. But I don't see concussion resistance or other durability studies.

 

Agreed. The fundamental point i originally made is pretty simple really. Flyweights knockout Flyweights. They wouldn't knockout HWs. Therefore there is a correlation between size and punch resistance and everything else just becomes a matter of degrees, as you allude to.

That correlation isn't limited to different fighters only. If the same fighter adds substantial, functional mass whilst staying in elite fighting shape, then all other factors being equal, their punch resistance will improve. The laws of physics don't stop applying because it's the same person.

 

Strongly disagree

 

I could see him getting a controversial decision over Valuev or knocking out Leon Spinks.