How many heavyweights could have beat Caracas Foreman?

True and we can't avoid the elephant in the room of the Ali fight where a thinking fighter beat the wrecking machine. Agreed Tyson was a lot quicker than Foreman, so depends if you see the speed outweighing the size of Foreman as an advantage. Foreman could also be awkward, in a good way, and I never saw him as a conventional fighter, even in his second career. So he may also have surprises for Spinks, not just the other way round!

 

For much of Wladimirs reign Vitali wasn't fighting. He didn't fight at all in 2006, 2007, 2013, 2014, or 2015 and by 2011/2012 he was slowing down and probably wasn't even Wladimirs most formidable opponent anymore. By 2011 I would have probably favored Fury over Vitali and possibly Povetkin as well.
So we are really only talking about a 2 year period late 2008 to late 2010 in which Vitali was the clear standout contender for Wladimir.

Also it has to be noted that for all his supposed ability Vitali has a pretty garbage resume and that other contenders of Wladimirs who he didn't face would be heavily favored over anyone Vitali fought. I'd favor Wilder and Ortiz over anyone Vitali beat pretty heavily.

 

Ali sat on the ropes vs Foreman relying on his incredible durability to outlast and tire out Foreman, pretty much no one in Heavyweight history apart from Ali could employ that tactic vs Foreman and get away it.

 

Wilder is interesting in this cross-era context, but he doesn't really form part of the Klitschko-era, in my opinion, and neither brother fought him. I also think he doesn't really jump out as having "skills"; more a physical presence, unorthodoxy, determination and extreme power, all of which serve up some compelling unknowns.

Povetkin - is a reasonable shout. I think he'd always be in and around the mix of top heavyweights, across the ages. He had solid fundamentals and was clearly well schooled and drilled; had excellent conditioning and was as hard as a coffin nail.

My only real knock on Povetkin is that he was not particularly inventive. I didn't really see him as being able to adapt tactically in a fight, save perhaps for his ability to up his workrate, if pushed to do so. Even then, it could take him a while to find a change in gear, when he'd got stuck in tempo.

However, if we're only talking about one Klitschko-era contender (and titlist) in Povetkin, who could be confidently considered able enough to compete and achieve the status of Champion in other eras, then it does speak to the dearth of talent available during the period.

 

Even if Vitali wasn't fighting in some of Wladimir's era, the fact is when anyone thinks of that era it's the "Klitschko brothers". They were by far the only 2 real stand out fighters amongst the rest of the fighters during that period, and it was very frustrating that fight the fight could never take place under any circumstances.

Well the same could be said for Wilder his resume isn't anything to write home about, and Ortiz for all his supposed ability his best win is over Bryant Jennings, Charles Martin, let that sink in for a moment.

 

Good point!

 

Worth noting that Foreman was clearly extremely well prepared to take on a crossguard user, seeing how he had Archie in his corner. In reality, implementing elements of such guard would be a natural progress of Foreman's skillset, seeing how Sandy Saddler fixed in parts of it as well.

 

2008 to 2012 Vitali didn't lose a fight. His competitive loss against Lewis in 2003 put him right up there from then on when he was fighting.

 

I wonder if you have missed my point. Which is a pity, because I thought I had made my observation quite clear.

I am not "hoping" for any evidence. I'm making the point that the evidence we do have is not sufficient for you to categorically state that Young, Norton and Shavers fought an "ill", "damaged guy", "in the early stages of a degenerative disease".

You have correlated what one perceives as a diminished Ali, particularly during '76 to '77 (which is a fair enough observation by itself), with Ali's subsequent diagnosis, post-retirement, and a much later study of his speech, to resolve to stating that these contenders were fighting an Ali, who you imply was medically unfit to box. I believe you are wrong to do this.

 

Early on, I thought his chin was the reason he fought conservatively, but after he proved his chin against Fury in that third bout, I think you're spot on regarding his stamina being the reasoning for it.

 

Forgot Frank Sanchez.

 

I think its reasonable to view Wilder as part of the Klitschko era because he was ranked as early as 2013 and discussed as a potential Klitschko opponent. Some of his more memorable knockouts also took place then like the infamous kayo of Liakhovich where his opponent went into convulsions.

Maybe you could add Ortiz and Pulev to the list. What do you think? They seem like the most dangerous aside from the guys I mentioned.

 

Who beats Caracas Foreman?

Muhammad

Maybe Sonny
Maybe Larry
Maybe Joe

 

I see the Klitschko era ending in 2015 and being taken up by Fury.

There might have been a slim overlap, during which Wilder was rated, but his title run didn’t begin until 2015. I no more include Wilder in the Klitschko era than I include Vitali K as part of the 90’s era.

Besides, as already mentioned, Wilder never faced either Klitschko. Ortiz falls into this bracket as well. He is neither a Klitschko era Heavyweight nor did he meet either one of them.

I don’t particularly rate Pulev. He’s a half-decent Euro-level operator, but he hasn’t achieved much, if anything, at world level and his efforts when given his world title shots have been poor, in my opinion.