How good was Holmes in 1985-86

Holmes has stated the reason he came back in the 90's was because those fighters being touted as the next big thing (Bowe, Lewis, Ruddock, Mercer, Morrison, Moorer, etc.) weren't as good as the 80's bunch who get **** on at times.

85-86 Holmes was active and still showing resolve against the likes of Carl Williams in a fight Truth had locked up but his inactivity let Holmes back in it near the end. Holmes was still savvy enough to beat some good heavyweights and possibly only loses to the best out there. Guys like Pinklon Thomas, Mike Tyson, maybe Tim Witherspoon, possibly a Tony Tucker or Tony Tubbs or Tyrell Biggs.

Jim Jacobs and Bill Cayton "coerced" Holmes out of retirement to face a young Mike Tyson just months after the 2nd loss to Spinks. Interesting fight at this stage in either man's career.

 

Exactamundo.

The division was hardly deep and it was not necessary to negotiate minefields. Sure seemed like everyone went downhill from like 1983. The degree they went down was interesting itself. Some went off a cliff and some not so bad, but they all had major deterioration. Larry's boxing smarts and skillset was good enough to survive that.......but not exactly prosper.

But Tyson was by far the most pedigreed up and comer. Nobody else in shouting distance.

 

Not necessarily Holmes fought off the ropes alot more in his 40s, and that's how he befuddled Mercer on the ropes. And made it frustrating night for Holyfield aswell.

For example when Holmes fought in middle of the ring vs Mercer in 1st round, he almost got floored by a jab from Mercer. Holmes primarily won by fighting off the ropes something Holmes didn't do in 85-86.

So whilst Holmes in mid 80s is obviously better although he didn't have his legs anymore, Holmes made some adjustments in his comeback that made him maybe more effective vs Holyfield, Mercer.

For me at that time Pinklon Thomas was the best Heavyweight in the world, and I think he would've beat Holmes IMO had they fought in 84 or 85.

 

He did quite well against Holyfield despite losing and held his own even in his later years fighting into the 90s. Holmes was very smart and gets underrated often outside of here I'm glad this forum gives him props. No version of the later 80s and on version of Holmes was beating Tyson when they fought but that Mike is a scary match up for almost all H2H. Still he wasn't shot then again he was still capable of beating decent contenders just not Holyfield, Tyson and Bowe then circa late 80s to mid 90s.

 

I did a thread on this once -- would '92 Holmes have beaten Spinks? '86 Holmes, despite being younger, hadn't adjusted yet to being an older fighter, figured out what he could still do well, figured out what wouldn't work for him anymore, figured out how to compensate for the losses. '92 Holmes put all of that together, while '86 Holmes was still trying to fight like he would have in '78.

I'm not entirely convinced that '86 Holmes was better than '92 Holmes.

 

Larry Holmes was in deep decline by 1985-1986, he was the defending IBF Champion after abdicating the WBC Title. He showed deterioration during his title defense against Carl The Truth Williams on May 19 1985, many observers thought after viewing the nationally broadcast bout on NBC that Larry has suffered his first defeat, judging by Holmes swollen shut eyelid. This eventually led to Holmes loss to undisputed World Light Heavyweight Champion Michael Spinks on Sept 21 1985 by unanimous 15 round decision, on the 30th anniversary of undefeated World Heavyweight Champion Rocky Marciano's defeat of World Light Heavyweight Champion Archie Moore, TKO 9 on Sept 21 1955. Larry's stamina was waning, his once powerful left jab was ineffective, he lacked lateral movement. His eventual decline was in evidence in his May 20 1983 WBC Title defense against Terrible Tim Witherspoon, in round 9 Holmes was rocked by Witherspoon. Holmes escaped with a 12 round split decision.

 

Larry's opponents in 1985-86 had a combined score of 85-0!
If Larry had achieved a better result than he did, he would have solidified the #3 spot on the HW ATG list.
A reign must end once, or you retire while still ruling. Larry's reign was more than solid.
If Spinks hadn't come, Tyson would have come...

 

He was still one of the top 3. He should have gotten the nod in the Spinks rematch. Neither Tubbs nor Witherspoon were in ideal shape as seen by their 1986 fight. Pinklon was going down hill from his drug addiction. There wasn’t much to speak of in the division until Tyson started cleaning it up around mid 1986

 

Still one of the best, but ready to be taken if he carried on, which he was. Unlucky in the Spinks rematch though.

 

Completely agree. People forget Spinks took out a still dangerous Cooney. There are reasons why Tyson-Spinks was the biggest heavyweight fight of the 80's.

Many felt Holmes beat Spinks in their rematch and claim he was the uncrowned champion.

 

It was a terrible version of Cooney. The man was an alcoholic at the time. In an interview it was the one loss he harped on as he was in such ordinary shape for it.

 

92 Holmes would have lost even worse to Spinks. There was absolutely NOTHING about 92 Holmes that was better than 85-86 Holmes.

 

Not better but he adjusted his style fighting off the ropes in the 90s which made him effective vs Mercer, Holyfield.

But I agree fighting off the ropes vs Spinks isn't going to be effective, and it certainly wouldn't be effective vs Iron Mike either.