Was Buster Douglas Really Stronger Than Evander Holyfield?

LOL. Okay, so show me all the big roided out HWs of note he beat and shoved around? Are
You gonna say Cooney? This juggernaut you
talk about went after some of the smallest HW champs in the modern era- he won his belt off a little guy too in the 70s.

I have to wonder what’s your proof of Foreman’s strength besides illegally pushing around guys 40-50lbs lighter? Which really isn’t a feat of strength like you make it out to be, unless you want to concede that Ali man handled him? Which he did, right in his vaunted prime. I can’t wait for a response.

 

Literally a power lifter? - please go on. He was built like a fat guy who lifted recreationally. Evander benched 360lbs for 10 we have zero on Foreman besides his exploits illegally pushing people, he looks like melted ice cream, maybe he was stronger I don’t know, I just doubt it.

But by your logic Ali was stronger then Foreman in his prime by a lot, because I and you can readily watch minute after minute of Muhammad muscling him around - or is it only leverages and grappling skills when Ali does it?

 

That’s fine, nearly everyone was too many. But note I said “pretty strong” I’m not claiming he was Hercules reborn I’m just going by memory here from one of @cross_trainer threads.

 

Douglas was not motivated like with Tyson.

 

STRONGEST
James “Bonecrusher” Smith: At the weigh in, I tried to feel his strength. I leaned on him and it was like leaning on a wall. He was ****ing unbelievably strong. He was terrifying and embodied what it meant to be a slugger. Bonecrusher would punch through you. I tell you, when he punched me it felt like an earthquake. Every inch of your body felt that power.

 

Young Foreman threw 214 1/2 lb Canadian Strongman, George Chuvalo, half the length of the ring and into the ropes like it was nothing.

As to the lifting stats cited for other fighters - are thee any reasonable proofs of same provided here? From my experience, lifters are very prone to exaggeration.

Ask them to show you the money - and there’s always some reason or explanation, on the day, as to why they couldn’t lift the weight they told you they could lift.

Gym strength and isolated, express lifts are inferior to functional strength (including related endurance) anyway.

Ali said Foreman threw him to the ropes like he was a rag doll.

There are several instances of Foreman’s raw strength on display during the fight in Zaire. Ali clearly applied better tech in respect of holding, grappling and mauling - and his advantage obviously increased as Foreman began to fatigue.

 

Sorry JT, but I have to say you’re one of those annoying posters who always lets facts get in the way of a good argument. Party pooper.

 

I'm very popular at parties.

 

I don’t get invited to any parties.

I have life sized cardboard cut outs of people that I place near my windows - so that the silhouettes, as seen from outside, look like I have lots of friends over.

Sad but true.

 

A lot of this has been answered I think and reading my post again might help, with all due respect. I didn’t say Ali was stronger I was playing to their logic of claiming grappling strength could show you who was strongest, Ali man-handled Foreman, Foreman was totally lost on the inside where he was a novice. Pushing someone is meaningless and illegal, again I’m sure a Sumo could shove Eddie Hall around the ring but in the weight room where pure static strength is king…

I’m sure Joe Frazier could push Shane Mosley around despite Mosley being juiced up and a decent weightlifter, grappling won’t tell you who is for a fact physically stronger this extends to shoving matches, pushing etc.

Functional strength? Define that please, I cannot pin down what that actually means. It’s usually applied in these situations to big up the weaker guy. That “farmers strength” that manual labourer strength. It’s imaginary nonsense it makes you better at what you do in my EXP, I swung a sledgehammer, dug trenches worked the land whatever you want to call it 6 hours a day as a teenager for months at a time and then everyday forever when I moved to the farm- I did manual labour of all shapes I’ve been a brick layer too the vaunted strongman of the trade world . It didn’t make me Hercules and countless other guys I’ve known.

My Pa was a bricklayer since he was thirteen and a farmer till this day, he could put up big weights. He’d tell people all the time it was his job that made him what he is and do endless chin ups and push ups in secret before and after work. What I’m saying though sorry to go off the path a bit, I don’t believe in functional strength whatever it is and I don’t think there’s a way to “express it’” or measure it. General strength?

About Ali, he wanted to go to the ropes and he wasn’t mauled and Foreman didn’t display any strength at all, he was exactly where Ali wanted him. Ali showed us this in the fight by fighting exactly to his plan that’s the best thing we can use as evidence.

Before you mention his footwork and Ali’s shock at his ability to cut the ring, and talking up his strength how about we mention that Ali said Foreman didn’t hit hard at all and decide if you want to go down the “Ali said” route? He talked Foreman up for his legacy, it worked, he beat Foreman with relative ease.

 

What do you base old Foreman being stronger on? I’m basing my claim on Evander being stronger on all the gym lifts we hear about, scant isn’t it? But allegedly he out benched pro athletes and so on, and was on all the gear and trained by a Mr O. I think that’s enough for me to rank him over a fat guy with “farm strength” whose only evidence is employing shoving against little guys. Let’s also add the people surrounding GF were against weights, Angelo, Moore etc- additionally he did it by himself in private after boxing work. Evander had a Mr O pushing him and likely a team for his drugs, all the while actively trying to get bigger and stronger.

 

I think believing Holyfield based on what we have is more sensible then assuming Foreman is stronger because he pushed around someone 40lbs (is that right?) lighter then him in a boxing match. About Holyfield not man handling Foreman, not that I think he could due to the size difference- why would he? He was winning nearly every round just fine.

 

Strength does translate in all different kinds of ways in a fight. I read once that Shane Mosley bench pressed more then Joe Frazier. Noway that Shane Mosley manhandles Joe Frazier.

 

I highlighted Foreman’s raw strength vs Ali’s strength combined with technique. I also highlighted Foreman’s obvious strength as displayed against Chuvalo - stand alone observations that are pertinent to the discussion.

You can simply agree or disagree with those observations with rationale in support. .

Functional strength is simply rounded, uniformly maintained strength (= endurance) , all muscles, including stabilisers - and you can get that from certain labouring jobs or combination of same. Anecdotally you don’t believe from YOUR experiences - from my own experiences I do.

Watch the Zaire fight again, Foreman did shove Ali on several occasions. Yeah, I’m happy to go the Ali comment route, why wouldn’t I be - particularly when my observation aligns with his comment - but the comment itself doesn’t constitute evidence in its own right - you know, like Machen claiming he was blinded by Liston.

What’s the worth of that claim when there is NO evidence otherwise to support it? Answer: ZERO. Let’s keep the analytical methods you’re applying uniform.

Before I mention Foreman cutting off the ring? Why would I reference that when we’re talking strength?

Ali’s victory wasn’t “relatively easy”. He soaked up hellacious body shots to see out an always perilous and punishing strategy. Not Foreman’s absolute best but Ali also copped several bell ringers to the head.

Ali was very tired himself by round 8, he knew it was time to step it up for the KO. He dropped to the canvas at fights end in order to get some much needed space, oxygen and rest. It was a finely balanced strategy that required that almost everything go to plan for Muhammad.

In bombast, straight after the fight, Ali talked himself up - an acute reaction to the doubters - to put them in their place. That waa the actual “show” Ali was putting on.

Later, given genuine introspection, Ali gave a more honest appraisal re the fight, it’s complexion, Foreman the fighter and how he (Ali) felt during the fight.

Ali certainly wasn’t pining for a rematch against George to replicate his “relatively easy” victory in Zaire.

 

Foreman physically shoved Holyfield and Morrison around with little effort. There’s two likely drug cheats (one admitted) that old George was clearly stronger then. Young Foreman also shoved George Chuvalo half way across the ring with what looked like a shrug and pushed an advancing Boone Kirkman straight to the canvas. Get a guy to walk towards you and try to push them down, I’ll bet the best you can achieve is slightly checking their momentum. Foreman didn’t just check his momentum he sent a 200lb man flying backwards to the ground.
He was ****ing strong, I don’t see why you refuse to admit it despite numerous example being shown by myself and others. Aside from finding this hill and deciding to die on it over this issue it’s ridiculous.
I’ve seen the Rumble in the Jungle more times than I care to remember and I don’t recall Ali manhandling George a single time. He grappled, used leverage and leaned on the back of Foreman’s head to negate him but manhandled? Total bull$hit. When the fight came to pure strength it was Ali getting shoved into the ropes every time but Ali was smart enough to use his tricks to wear George down and let him waste his energy in the hot conditions. This manhandled myth is total fantasy (like Evander having more raw strength than old George despite George clearly moving Holyfield around with ease and Evander admitting numerous times than George was far stronger than him and stronger than any other opponent he fought). Makes me wonder if you’ve watched the fight or formed your opinion from watching an Ali hagiography like When We We’re Kings.