Sonny Liston 84 inch reach myth

Not! I have a better idea.
That in addition to the forums: general, classic, British, training, MMA, Lounge, there should be a separate section with the name "Sonny Liston reach"
Do you agree; Do you agree that it is a better idea?

 

Dare I say, I don’t think the proposition of a section dedicated solely to Liston’s reach is that much of reach.

Perhaps you should reach out to the Mods on the possibility of a Sonny Liston Reach Section. I’m sure you know where and how to reach them.

Hopefully, they’ll reach the same conclusion as you and I and not decide that a Sonny Liston Reach Section is too much of a stretch.

 

Earlier in his career Liston's reach was usually listed at 81 or 82 inches, but once he became became a potential champion his reach suddenly became 84 inches. Liston's reach was around the same as Cleveland Williams, Max Baer, and Bugner, who all had a reach of around 79 to 80 inches, which is still a great reach for someone under 6'2". Also, very few guys in boxing history had a legitimate 84 inch reach.

Here is a piece mentioning both talking about Liston's upcoming fight with Machen.

The prelim work was over Tuesday for Sonny Liston and Eddie Machen the No. 1 and No. 2 challengers for Floyd Patterson's heavyweight crown, clash here Wednesday night.

Liston wrapped things up Monday with light drills at Everett. Machen after trotting three miles around Green Lake, spend some time shadow boxing and at the punching bag before calling it quits.

They weigh in Wednesday, at 10:30 am. so they'll have time to stow away a good dinner well before they enter the ring at 6 p.m.

The unsually early fight hour to meet Eastern and Midwest television commitments. The fight is blacked out for the northwest.

Liston's manager Pep Barone, said he expected his Philadelphia fighter to weigh in around 212, which would give him about 16 pounds edge over the Portland heavyweight. Liston's reach is also about 82 inches, compared to Machen's 75 inches.
https://imgur.com/7k6jDAj

Here is a picture with Cleveland Williams and Sonny Liston
https://imgur.com/cqN7BCf

Here is Buddy Baer commenting on Liston's fist size, but not his reach.

Buddy Baer was in the city over the week-end in behalf of the Eagles' Max Baer Heart Fund.

"I am so much luckier than Max," Buddy said. "I got the heart attack warning in time, Max didn't."

He was talking about his brother, the former heavyweight champion, who died Nov. 21, 1959, at age 50, in the prime of life.

Big silver-haired Buddy has raised $200,000 for the Eagles' Heart Fund. He turned over a check of $100,000 to Dr. Charles Mayo and will present another for a similar amount in Pittsburgh the first week in August, all going to heart research.

Who does he like in the coming Patterson-Liston title bout?

"If Liston doesn't knock him out," Baer replied, "Patterson will do a lot of funny things standing up when he's hit. He can't take a punch at all."

Baer marveled at the size of Liston's fists. "They're far bigger than mine," he said as he put on display two ham-like hands.
https://imgur.com/CqB4ghY

A tale of the tape with Bugner and Muhammad Ali both with an 80-inch reach.
https://imgur.com/0hRjnUh

Here is a piece with Angelo Dundee talking about why a fighter's listed reach should be taken with a grain of salt.


Angelo Dundee has been in the fight game long enough to acquire a few favorite bromides.

"Weight doesn't meat might" he says when someone notices that Jimmy Ellis will be outweighed almost 30 pounds Monday night when he meets Muhammad Ali in a 12-round bout in the Astrodome.

"Height doesn't mean reach" he says when someone notices that Ali has an Advantage in that department.

And besides that, Dundee says Ali's official listed reach of 80 inches is a phony.

How so?

"Those measurements were taken several years ago," Said Dundee, who is in the unusual position of being Ellis' manager and Ali's former trainer.

"I know the guy who took the original measurements and they're a phony.'

Under closer questioning, Dundee said "Whatever it was, I think I added on three or four inches; I'm not sure what is was. I'd like to get a tape and measure him now."

Ellis isn't concerned with weights and measures.

"Sure, he's probably got a reach advantage on me, but that makes no difference." Ellis said.

"I know how to maneuver, to shift, dodge, get inside. So I'll take away that advantage."

All things considered, Dundee figures Ali has only about a one or two inch advantage over Ellis, who is listed with a 76-inch reach.

Dundee made his revelation about Ali's reach shortly after the former champion had once again dazzled the crowd with his best theatrical form.

Ali sparred tow rounds with the Rev. Ray Martin, a former professional fighter who now runs an amateur boxing program here.

After Ali and the minister had pushed and shoved for one round, Ali shouted, "This is the last round coming up. You must fall. Say a prayer, reverend. You better hope the angels are in your corner."

Ali and the minister then went into a furious but mock punching exchange and Ali dropped to the canvas and was helped back to his corner.

Ali waved the minister away, then jumped from the ring and ran to his dressing room.

It was one of Ali's better performances.

Ali brought the house down again when he exchanged words with Ellis as he trained.

Ali approached Ellis shouting " We're going to settle this."

Ellis did not spar Thursday but worked on the speed bag and skipped rope. He said he planned to finish his training Friday by boxing six rounds.

Ali sparred four rounds Thursday, two each with Alonzo Johnson and Eddie Brooks.

Ali planned to go one round today with Joe Bugner, the European British Empire heavyweight champion.
https://imgur.com/8Rba9Dq

 

In'nerestin'.
Here is an SI article written in a rococo writerly style, where he runs down Liston's present skills, body, & describes him dropped in training.
They also disrespect Ali/do not use Ali even though it is long after he changes it from Clay (the day after becomeing champion).

https://vault.si.com/vault/1964/11/16/sony-liston-profile-muhammad-ali-first-fight

 

Great then we can do one for his shoe size.
Which is usually striongly correlated with hand size, so it must have been at least near the late teens.

Unless he was strangely disproportionate-as he was in terms of height, yes he could have been nutritionally deprived.

Only fairly recently did I see the most imbalance I ever noted re: relative sizes of feet & hands-of course absent a deformity.
Michael Jordan had a size 13 & the other foot 13.5, large for an average man, yet a bit small for his height.

BUT he is listed on youtibe videos as being in the top 10 biggest hands *ever* in the NBA.
Thus an imbalance in size of hands & feet.

 

Excellent post, terrific info and great references in support.

Very much appreciated.

Seems we might perhaps be firming more on “80 for Bugner, not the “82 I’ve read elsewhere. Fair play.

Baer’s another guy I’ve seen a few different listings for - 80”, 81” and 81 1/2” (the last being his reach listing for the Louis fight).

I think I’ve seen 80” for Williams but he was listed at what appears to read as 83” for the Chuvalo fight. Not saying it’s correct but it is out there Go to 1:25

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I’ve never seen a listing of 81” for Liston. The lowest of I’ve seen was the one off 80.5” for the Martin fight. Otherwise, the lowest I’ve read for Sonny was about 82” - 82 1/2” - which is possibly closest to the truth.

Early career Ali was listed around 78 1/2” - 79” - a range he also got when measured on live television.

Perhaps Dundee is talking about the Liston fight for which Ali’s reach was exaggerated, with about 3” being added for a listing of 82”.

I don’t know that Ali’s reach was as low as 76”-77” as Dundee’s subtractive calc from 80” suggests.

Based on various and broad references a reach of 78 1/2 - 79” for Ali rings fairly true, just imo.

Totally agree that a reach of 84”- 85” is quite rare - and a good chance that even some of the bigger, SHWs of today might be fudging when claiming such figures.

I guess putting the numbers aside, at least fair to say that Liston was rocking an extraordinary reach that would fit nicely for even a well reached 6’4” to 6’6” fighter.

Terrell claimed a reach of 82” I believe- and when sparring with Liston, I judged Liston’s reach to be at least as long - though I will say that I’m not sure Terrell was a full 6’6” - I’m sure I sighted an early newspaper article that had Ernie as low as 6’4 1/2”.

Suffice to say, stats can often be all over the place for fighters.

I took a snapshot from the Besmanoff fight which is now my avatar for the moment. - to illustrate the disproportionate length of Liston’s arms - best exemplified when jabbing - the glove is well compressed into Besmanoff’s face, Liston being able to land hard from an unusually remote distance that isn’t enjoyed by most other fighters.

 

Go, go gadget arms! That's freakish.

 

Excellent find with that picture of Williams and Liston holding that child up!

 

I know, right? Even in Miami, you could see Ali having to adjust and recalibrate to account for the telescopic jab that kept extending out.

 

Cool photo. Seen it before but only a cropped version.