Was Buster Douglas Really Stronger Than Evander Holyfield?

Strength does translate in all different kinds of ways in a fight. I read once that Shane Mosley bench pressed more then Joe Frazier. Noway that Shane Mosley manhandles Joe Frazier.

 

I highlighted Foreman’s raw strength vs Ali’s strength combined with technique. I also highlighted Foreman’s obvious strength as displayed against Chuvalo - stand alone observations that are pertinent to the discussion.

You can simply agree or disagree with those observations with rationale in support. .

Functional strength is simply rounded, uniformly maintained strength (= endurance) , all muscles, including stabilisers - and you can get that from certain labouring jobs or combination of same. Anecdotally you don’t believe from YOUR experiences - from my own experiences I do.

Watch the Zaire fight again, Foreman did shove Ali on several occasions. Yeah, I’m happy to go the Ali comment route, why wouldn’t I be - particularly when my observation aligns with his comment - but the comment itself doesn’t constitute evidence in its own right - you know, like Machen claiming he was blinded by Liston.

What’s the worth of that claim when there is NO evidence otherwise to support it? Answer: ZERO. Let’s keep the analytical methods you’re applying uniform.

Before I mention Foreman cutting off the ring? Why would I reference that when we’re talking strength?

Ali’s victory wasn’t “relatively easy”. He soaked up hellacious body shots to see out an always perilous and punishing strategy. Not Foreman’s absolute best but Ali also copped several bell ringers to the head.

Ali was very tired himself by round 8, he knew it was time to step it up for the KO. He dropped to the canvas at fights end in order to get some much needed space, oxygen and rest. It was a finely balanced strategy that required that almost everything go to plan for Muhammad.

In bombast, straight after the fight, Ali talked himself up - an acute reaction to the doubters - to put them in their place. That waa the actual “show” Ali was putting on.

Later, given genuine introspection, Ali gave a more honest appraisal re the fight, it’s complexion, Foreman the fighter and how he (Ali) felt during the fight.

Ali certainly wasn’t pining for a rematch against George to replicate his “relatively easy” victory in Zaire.

 

Foreman physically shoved Holyfield and Morrison around with little effort. There’s two likely drug cheats (one admitted) that old George was clearly stronger then. Young Foreman also shoved George Chuvalo half way across the ring with what looked like a shrug and pushed an advancing Boone Kirkman straight to the canvas. Get a guy to walk towards you and try to push them down, I’ll bet the best you can achieve is slightly checking their momentum. Foreman didn’t just check his momentum he sent a 200lb man flying backwards to the ground.
He was ****ing strong, I don’t see why you refuse to admit it despite numerous example being shown by myself and others. Aside from finding this hill and deciding to die on it over this issue it’s ridiculous.
I’ve seen the Rumble in the Jungle more times than I care to remember and I don’t recall Ali manhandling George a single time. He grappled, used leverage and leaned on the back of Foreman’s head to negate him but manhandled? Total bull$hit. When the fight came to pure strength it was Ali getting shoved into the ropes every time but Ali was smart enough to use his tricks to wear George down and let him waste his energy in the hot conditions. This manhandled myth is total fantasy (like Evander having more raw strength than old George despite George clearly moving Holyfield around with ease and Evander admitting numerous times than George was far stronger than him and stronger than any other opponent he fought). Makes me wonder if you’ve watched the fight or formed your opinion from watching an Ali hagiography like When We We’re Kings.

 

Foreman definitely has the most "world's strongest man" potential, imagine him taking 8 weeks to beef up to 290lbs, body fat % a bit more than prime but less than second career, he would more than likely be a top performer

 

Re: the "World's Strongest Man" issue --

In @Journeyman92's defense (since I was disagreeing with him a bit ago, it's only fair), one can easily go too far the other direction. Foreman attracts hyperbole.

Coetzer rated Old George second in strength to Frank Bruno. Still quite strong, but not the strongest guy Coetzer faced in the 80s/90s.

Moorer rated Bert Cooper as the strongest. Moorer faced Old Foreman.

Chuvalo rated Young Foreman the strongest. This is an accomplishment, since Chuvalo was a rough customer himself. But as you point out above, the 70s weren't exactly awash with massive steroid guys.

Wepner rated Young Foreman and Old Liston in similar positions strength-wise, speculating that Liston in his prime must have been stronger. Now, Liston (even old Liston) was a very strong fellow himself, but he was smaller than a lot of the 90s guys as well.

Holyfield is the best bet here, since he rated Foreman as the strongest guy he'd faced. But Holyfield wasn't fully bulked up when he fought Foreman. Could Old Foreman push around the version of Evan Fields who stopped Tyson twice? I dunno. I doubt it would have been easy.

I feel quite safe in saying Foreman was a very strong man, who was also more skilled than average at shoving and arm fighting. I don't think it's warranted to say he had the capacity to be one of the strongest athletes ever with eight weeks of training.

 

My ****ing God…

 

LOL. Okay, I’m sorry yes Foreman was so incredibly strong, did you see him pushing people? Wow! your right. Ali did man handle him, watch the fight again just in case you learnt something new since. I don’t know if Ali is stronger but he certainly did what he wanted with GF.

Again you’re going back to “B-b-but he pushed people!” We actually don’t know how strong George is at all- What we know he’s good at applying his weight and hand fighting/shoving- again a Sumo could do all of those things to Julius Maddox but I wonder who is stronger… hmm.

We do know practically for a fact Evander is a PED cheat and that he was trained by a literal Mr O. I reckon he’d be able to put up more weight in a test of raw strength. That’s all I’m saying, I don’t think it’s unreasonable at all and I think your love of mythology is getting in the way of with just saying “Foreman is stronger in a way expressed in the ring, Evander is probably physically stronger in the weight room”

There is nothing that can be done in the ring whilst boxing that could tell me you’d be able to deadlift more then the person your fighting, nothing to say you could bench more, nothing to say you’d squat more- bottom line it’s either judging by appearances which is eh, the offensively obvious like Foreman boxing Arnold, reported lifts which are dubious or deciding grappling is a way of say determining a bench max… no, it’s all just fun guess work.

 

so if Foreman kept up the jeep pulling and hay bale flipping, but turned in the boxing stuff for weights, overhead press, squat, deadlift, bench press, stuff related to strongman for 2 months he would have come in dead last?

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What film or independently verified third-party evidence (comparable to competition results) do we have of 1970s -- Young -- Foreman's performance on jeep pulling or haybale flipping? What measured weight was he pushing around, and how far? If we had that, it would make it easier to give an answer.

I also have my doubts that Foreman could put on seventy-five pounds of mostly-muscle in eight weeks using 1970s training methods. Per Wiki, 70s Arnold was 6'2", 260 in the off season, and his entire training regimen for most of his adult life was built around getting muscular.

EDIT: That said, putting it in the 1970s does make it a little more attainable than going up against more recent WSM competitions, yes.

 

Foreman likely would have great potential in this event, but even with an efficient cocktail of PEDs he is not adding anything near what you postulate within a couple months. Do the math &you are talking something north of 50 lbs. of new muscle.
Natural given his large structure he would add a couple lbs. a MONTH at most 20-25 lbs. in a year-& the rate slows going forward.

But yeah all other things being + he might be a formidable strongman.

 

I addressed this already, & although with the stated specifics of body fat it could be not much more than 50 lbs., that is an absurd amount of pure muscle to expect anyone to gain in 8 weeks-'70's training for a strength sport might be expected to include PEDs.
WITHOUT them someone with excellent potential might put on 5 lbs. of new muscle in that time.
WITH them maybe 15-20: it is almost exponentially easier when shoving in male hormones & potentiators to grotesquely circumvent all natural limits.

But for him to reach 290 relatively lean would take a while even WITH PEDs.
Assuming there are not mitigating factors like being extremely tall...
For anyone really.

 

Sarcasm is cute but doesn't cut it. Actually watch. Foreman grabbed Chuvalo and hurled him. Chuvalo said Foreman was the strongest guy he faced. See the clip below for a refresher.

There are numerous other instances during the fight in which Foreman can be seen grappling, moving and forcing Chuvalo back. You're flying in the face of CLEAR visual evidence and accompanying testimony.

You say we actually don't know how strong Foreman is at all BUT you "reckon" Evander would be able to put up more weight? Your treatment and conclusions are clearly not even handed and you're happy to make leaps of faith where Holyfield is concerned while glibly and irrationally dismissing the KNOWN strength Foreman demonstrated in the ring.

IF, say, it was verified that Evander could bench 500 lbs, George only 400 lb but when that same Holy gets in the ring with Foreman, he gets manhandled and rag dolled by Foreman, what exactly is the value of shouting Holy's max. bench press from the roof tops? - and, in the REAL WORLD, what does it mean to say Evander is "stronger" than George? Answer: Diddly squat.

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It’s like you didn’t even read the post lol just defaulting to the standard Foreman gospel. I even agree with you on some points- Yes it means nothing in the ring, but Evander is physically superior in the realms of raw strength IMO that was the entire point, strength expressed in the ring doesn’t equal actual raw static lifting strength. Grappling isn’t a measurement of maximum physical strength end of.

 

Lol, it’s like I DID actually read your post - that’s your problem.

You know your post was read, even quoted.

You also know that your specific points were addressed and countered.

You haven’t come back with anything but rhetoric, such as the “Foreman gospel”.

There is no such thing, and using such a nonsense term actually reflects heavy bias and prejudice from your end, not anyone else’s.

Foreman displayed greater raw strength in the ring - even Holy attested to Foreman being the strongest he faced - Evander didn’t quibble about grappling technique - because Foreman did not employ any - he used pure, raw strength - as the clip vs Chuvalo, for just one example, clearly showed.

But, without anything else to go by, you dismiss the partial evidence we can take from performances in the ring, also ignoring Holy’s testimony - and then conclude, with no evidence otherwise, that Evander could lift more than Foreman.

Yep, your methodology makes complete sense, not.

 

Yeah I remember seeing Joe Frazier lifting in the "Superstars" it was nothing impressive. I can actually lift more than Frazier, but he would still rag doll me in an actual fight.

Although if I pushed him in the swimming pool I'd destroy him Frazier was a brick in the water. Poor old Joe almost drowned on Superstars.