Just finished Joe Frazier's autobiography

It is what it is. When Tom Hauser wrote his book about Ali he related to him and his wife what Joe said about him. Lonnie said did you hear what he said and Muhammad said if that's the way he feels that's the way he feels.

 

Frazier’s autobio was great. I also liked the recent biography Mark Kram Jr wrote on him.

I also really enjoyed George Foreman’s autobiography too.

 

I realise that I'm farting in church here but I was n't over impressed. I've always admired Frazier but I found his autobio a bit boring when he talked at length about Ali. And before anyone shoots me down,I do appreciate that at the time Muhammad was mocking him Joe had the right to be angry. As big an Ali fan as I am,I do admit that he went way.....way over the top where Joe was concerned and nobody knew that more than Muhammad himself. But with the passing of years,Frazier should have let all the negativity die a death. Joe was,and is,highly respected among us boxing folk. Yes,Joe tried to help Muhammad a lot while the latter was exiled from boxing but he would still refer to Ali as "Clay" in interviews and so on. I'm only mentioning this to illustrate how It was n't simply a black and white case of Satanic Muhammad and Saint Joe which is how it's portrayed in some quarters.


I will state categorically that I have no problem with Frazier. Ali was my favourite boxer of all but I was quite a big fan of Smokin' Joe too.

Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier - two warriors. I salute you both.

I'm getting ready for the bullets now.

 

I enjoyed Ken's too.

 

This is a pretty fair & even handed attempt to balance the ledgers but I see it a little differently.

Yes it would have been better & more noble to let things go.
Frazier also vacillated between sentimentality & seeming love & that hate & resentment.
A friend made a road trip to see him & Smokin' Joe was really Gracious, gave him signed boxing gloves, but ran out after he left to give him them again-Frazier also seemed to literally think he won all 3 fights against Ali.
I believe that was likely punch & drinking induced dementia.

However even "Clay" was a reaction to Ali's deeply Cruel provocations.We have not even mentioned Frazier giving Ali money when he could not get arrested when banned from boxing.
His kids needing bodyguards.
Ali exploiting racist stereotypes against blacks to denigrate Frazier...

Now don't you think the guy who not only started the problems-& at best heedless about Joe's feelings & the consequences for his life & family...
Plus perpetuated it for years, AND crucially never seemed to make a public let alone private apology for it...
Is exponentially worse than the Victim of such taunting & Hate?

 

I just typed out a bunch of stuff and deleted it. I hate it when I actually care about the thread.

 

Just want to say Barrf, that was a tremendous write up and now, due to your overview, I am considering to buy Joe’s bio also.

I think Joe should’ve let it go at some point.

Not for Ali - I don’t know that Joe could have ever said enough bad things in his life to equate to the multitude of bad/nasty things that Ali said about many people over his lifetime.

No, I just think Joe should’ve let it go for Joe. Frazier deserved a lot better than to let that bitterness eat away at him and consume him.

If only people listened more, Joe should’ve got equal air time - a smart guy who said some very clever things.

Joe said that during the FOTC, Ali said “Don’t you know I’m God”, each word in sync with the punches he threw.

Joe replied “We’ll God, you’re getting your a** whupped!”

Ali denied saying that he said he was God - stressing he would never say that.

Now one big difference between Joe and Muhammad, at least as I see it, I totally believe Joe’s version of events - because I’ve always viewed as the more honourable, straight shooting and trustworthy guy.

Whatever insults Ali threw at Joe (insults that, in the extreme degree, ironically correlated with the extreme threat that Joe posed to him in the ring). he could never take away Joe’s proud standing as a real man and ATG fighter.

 

Go again bro, I’d be interested to read it. Of course, up to you.

 

I really respect your viewpoint,Entaowed. Yes I have taken into account all that you mention re the racist stereotypes,lending Ali money and kids needing bodyguards etc.The "Clay" taunting from Frazier occured before any of Ali's severe stuff towards Joe started - as early as 1967. But as I have mentioned,Ali did apologise in public and privately to Frazier in more recent years and more than once by all accounts. I did read that they met up at some point circa 2002 and had a good talk about it and parted on good terms. I also heard that Muhammad visited Joe in hospital when the latter had n't long left. Not sure if these accounts are 100% accurate but I do hope that they are.

 

I am going to try to choose my words carefully here.

I have enormous respect for Joe Frazier, he's in my ATG top 10.

I think Muhammad Ali was the GOAT.

I do think Ali went way over the top with much of what he said about Joe especially before and in Manila.

I will give Ali the benefit of the doubt in that I think it was all a shtick like heel 'rasslers would do, sort of like his idol Gorgeous George.

I will also give Ali the benefit of the doubt ... he may have been the GOAT but he was no candidate for Mensa ... that he simply didn't understand that Joe being a straightforward, no BS, what you see is what you get guy as has been described here, he was not able to process that stuff as shtick and play along with the gag. I will concede the possibility that he simply didn't care. Ali was no saint.

It's easy to say Joe should've gotten over it. I can't because I never walked a millimeter in the man's shoes.

I do think Joe went to his grave frustrated that Ali proved himself the better man in the ring. Manila settled that. Joe died bitter at Eddie Futch for stopping the fight, and convinced that Ali was ready to quit in his corner, but Ali would've died before he'd have quit and IMO if there had been a 15th round he would've stopped or knocked Joe out and maybe hurt him, because as tired as he was he knew that he could not have eased off against Joe, and he basically would've been unloading on a blind man. I know the ideal is to go out on your shield like a warrior, but I think more of Joe for the way it turned out, him basically being saved from himself after honorable combat in which he gave everything he had in his mind, heart, body and soul to give rather than crumpled in a heap or blinded for life.

I also think Joe went to his grave frustrated that nothing he did ever was enough to take Ali off his pedestal as far as the public consciousness. Joe was about prize fighting and maybe perseverance. He could not be about anything more. While Ali was about so much more than prize fighting, and no left hook could ever change that.

My .02, doesn't know if it makes a lick of sense.

 

Good post. I read somewhere that Joe eventually realised that Eddie Futch did the right thing by stopping him from coming out for the last round though it would n't have surprised me had Joe often changed his mind about that over the years according to his mood.

 

Good post and interesting thoughts.

Have you read the Mark Kram Jr Smoking Joe: The Life of Joe Frazier by Mark Kram Jr? Mark Kram Jr's book is, I thought, an even-handed and fair look at his life. Looks at his politics, personal life with his flaws too. Also asks how Ali and Frazier may have felt about eachother approaching the end. Well written too. Thought it was a better book than Frazier's.

I don't think you can really blame Frazier for how much he loathed Ali at one point. The way he was unfairly eviscerated on the national and then on world stage would a leave lasting bitterness. However, have to echo what Pugguy said. Have often thought that in the end the bitterness and hatred ended up consuming him and doing more damage to Frazier. An easy thing for me to say as I do not know how you let that level of feeling recede especially when you look around and see Ali praised to the extent was. Think he definitely mismanaged Marvis too and he would have been better served staying with Benton and just a different trainer/management team.

 

Same I thought the Mark Kram Jr book was really good too.

 

Have n't read the Kram Jr book yet but I will do so pretty soon.

 

Clearly Joe was eaten up with animosity through the years. And perhaps Ali should have extended an olive branch after the careers or even the fight was done and tried to reconcile with him to not take it personal, but there are many personalities in the game and I don't think Ali was one to dwell on feelings. I'm reminded of an interview with Earnie Shavers where he was asked if he was offended by Ali calling him 'The Acorn'. Shavers replied, "Oh, that didn't bother me at all. I knew where this was coming from. He knew how to get the press rolling. You have to be thick-skinned in an event like this. And win or lose, you want to be called back."

Joe should have looked at this realistically. That if he was fighting a shrinking violet who added no pizzazz to the promotion, he wouldn't have made the 2 largest purses of his career (2.5 mil for their first and third fights). Also, Joe wasn't exactly hiding behind the door himself with the insults. Have a gander some time at his first fight with Jerry Quarry. After the fight is stopped, Jimmy Ellis (the WBA champ) gets in the ring to congratulate Joe and Joe just goes off on him with Ellis looking dumb-founded. Now one can't say, 'Well, it was to help promote their upcoming fight.' Because that would be admitting that that was what Ali was doing. No, Joe wasn't guiltless here, he just wasn't as good as Ali in that department.