Just finished Joe Frazier's autobiography

Yeah, Joe asked Rahman, You Want To Get Into This Too?

 

And Muhammad was saying "Calm down, Joe".

 

I sure do remember that.

 

They got fined. They could have got hurt.

 

True, I remember both were fined by The New York State Boxing Commission.

 

Everybody complains about the holding in the second fight but Ali gave a masterclass on how to control a fight. Tony Perez who was the referee was asked about the holding and he said Joe was content with the breathers and he could have broke the holds by slipping down.

 

Yeah Tony Perez was the referee who saved Joe Frazier in round 2, he thought that the bell rang, separating Frazier and Ali, maybe Ali could have decked Joe, he was visibly shaken by a right hand thrown by Ali.

 

Joe was bitter as were some people because Muhammad won the trilogy. That's why they cite the holding in the second fight and claim Ali was about to quit in the third fight. I'm content to take the trilogy as it is without excuses or tears. Joe won the first. Muhammad won the next two

 

Same here. Each fighter had their own personality. Maybe Joe should have been thankful to the late Yank Durham for not allowing him to challenge champion Muhammad Ali in 1967, there was talk of this but Durham would not allow Frazier to go thru with it, instead waited for the Feds not to allow Ali to fight, to get ring rusty.

 

Style wise Frazier was the worst possible matchup. Like Tyson they were made to beat outboxers but Ali found a way to beat him twice, even after his otherworldly athleticism had waned. What Joe should have realized is that Ali wanted it just as much.

 

With all due respect, I have a different take on a 1967 title bout, Ali would have easily outclassed Frazier over 15 rounds, he did not stand still, he moved constantly, his timing was perfect, his stamina was in check, his footwork was very good, he hardly ever got hit soldly. I think that Durham knew that his charge with his style could not cope with all of peak Ali's gifts. I see a unanimous 15 round decision for Ali in much like the Feb 1967 win over Ernie Terrell, Frazier would have missed a lot. Heck, Frazier was decked twice in one round against Oscar Bonavena on Sept 21 1966,and won a hotly disputed decision. But in the loss and Ali's eventual absence, Joe would have gained the experience and probably beat a come backing Ali in March 1971, Ali no longer had the stamina or legs as he had in 1967.

 

That's a good point but Joe kept coming. Ali wondered if he could beat Rocky after watching his fight against Walcott with Angie on tape because Rocky kept coming. I think some of it might have been false modesty and he respected Rocky because Rocky respected him.

 

Important is pretty subjective - are we talking about recognition and fame or actual social, political, legal change, etc. It's very difficult to narrow such a list to just a few names. Really does depend upon what you mean by important. There were many figures involved in challenging and changing the laws, economics and social conditions which directly affected millions. Tricky and personal question. Not sure I could choose three names!

 

With regards to Ali -that's not what Frazier was bitter and angry about though is it? It's pretty disingenuous to suggest it was. It's also not about blaming Ali for that. He was not responsible for the family or circumstances he was born into. It's just about recognising and evaluating the whole picture that's all. Pointing out that Frazier was from the very poor working class background and was directly affected by the realities of the grinding racism that Ali claimed to be standing against is (for me) just recognising the whole thing. Or that Ali was from a middle class environment who benefitted from a group of white establishment businessmen who bankrolled his start and tried to look out for his interests for years, all the while attacking Frazier's racial identity. And also the irony and cruelty of the way Frazier was portrayed at the time (as much by the media as Ali and his supporters).

That does not diminish the things Ali accomplished, it just puts it into context. That's how it should be with everything and all public/historic figures should n't it -take an honest look at the whole thing. The relative weight you might give to those different aspects is personal.

Frazier was not perfect either and there were aspects of his politics I did not agree with either, or his personal life for that matter.

 

Frazier was bankrolled too by Cloverlay Inc when his pro career began in 1965 following his Olympic Gold Medal win in 1964, the same year that Muhammad Ali won the world title in Feb 1964 from Sonny Liston and it was taken from him in April 1967 for not accepting military induction. It is true the way you put it, some people were born into different circumstances, so animosity should never be held against someone that happened to be born under better circumstances, to me that is jealousy and resentment.