Bodysnatcher vs. The 4 Kings (McCallum vs. Marvin Hagler, Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns, Roberto Durán)

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by IntentionalButt, Jul 12, 2023.


Which kings does McCallum slay?

  1. Marvin Hagler

    4 vote(s)
    10.8%

  2. Ray Leonard

    8 vote(s)
    21.6%

  3. Thomas Hearns

    9 vote(s)
    24.3%

  4. Roberto Durán

    29 vote(s)
    78.4%

  5. None

    6 vote(s)
    16.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

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    abstract: So, just as there are multiple nominees for the right to be called the "fifth Beatle" (ranging from both original rhythm section members Pete Best & Stu Sutcliffe, to various managers, DJ's, producers and friends) there is room for debate, IMO, as to whom posterity could regard as the honorary pentagonal loop-closer along with arguably the most famous round-robin ATG club in the history of the sport. The majority opinion is that Wilfred Benítez - who fought all but Hagler - deserves the distinction, hands down. Now, let me say I am quite fond of El Radar and would not dismiss his very strong claim. If anybody wats to call the boricua legend "el quinto rey", that's braw enough. I just wonder if there's another contemporary of the group that might have at least as solid a claim despite having fought none of them (certainly not for want of trying).

    I am referencing of course one Michael McKenzie McCallum. It has always been the Jamaican technician's assertion - in which he is hardly alone (though perhaps the viewpoint of a loud minority) - that he was ducked, to varying degrees of abject shamefulness, by not one but the whole quartet.

    To wit:

    Hagler - This can probably be said without much controversy to be the least credible allegation (which I realize at first blush may sound awfully convenient from the mouth of an undisguised cheerleader of the Marvelous One...but the facts speak for themselves). Mike claims he was there waving his arms wide open in 1985-86, but his stock wouldn't rise to full superfight-marketable heights until 1987 when he stopped Curry - by which time Marv had permanently and on unshakable principle retired.
    IB's take: It could be a very tough night at the office for my boy (and the greatest Massachusetts fighter of my lifetime, with all due respect to my late pal Tony DeMarco), although I can't favor the Kingstonian-New Yorker outright in this game of physical chess. I'll call it 70-30 in favor of Hagler by decision.

    Leonard - He does have the ready made alibi of never having been too extensively at one time in the same waters as McCallum, but, damningly, he also is on record as having opened his gob to declare him too high risk for too little reward.
    IB's take: IMO this is a worse stylistic match-up than all three of the others. SRL by UD.

    Durán - They actually were scheduled to meet in 1984, as McCallum was his mandatory #1 contender. Of course the Panamanian jumped when offered the chance for a much fatter purse against Hearns - something that was facilitated by their mutual trainer behind McCallums' back. More on that below...
    IB's take: assuming we're talking '84 when it should have taken place, I lean slightly in MMM's favor, maybe 60-40 or 55-45. The deeper we get into the decade, the more that margin increases.

    Hearns - The scuttlebutt from insiders of the biz has long been that after knocking out Kronk fighter Milton "Ice Man" McCrory with a body shot (what else) in a WBA title defense three years past a contentious split with the Detroit gym, his former coach Emanuel Steward purportedly climbed in the ring and thrust something like a glossy 8x10 of Hearns in his face, seething that it was the closest he would ever get to sharing a ring with the Hitman.
    IB's take: victory is by no means guaranteed here, as Hearns could very well outbox him on the wings of a superior jab (with a nod to Mike's as he was no slouch in that department himself) and considerable speed advantage. In my own mind's eye, though, at the risk of sounding like a cliché merchant, this does play out a bit like McCallum vs. Don Curry - at least in terms of result, if not optically round to round. Down on cards, I can see Mike venting all his Kronk spite on Steward's favorite pet as sacrificial lamb and catching him with a perfectly timed counter from hell with years' worth of pent-up rage and frustration behind it. :deal:
    A decision is also within the realm of possibility, but he would need to fire on all cylinders for twelve rounds and play the role of mongoose to perfection to stultify the Motor City Cobra. On his very best day, points is a hard maybe.

    What say y'all? Does anybody see McCallum posting a better h2h mark than Benítez managed (1-2, and let's be honest, that becomes 1-3 pretty much automatically if he did ever get in with Hagler, simply awful match-up for El Radar)? If so, that does strengthen his case for being at the very least co-5th king.
     
    IntentionalButt, Jul 12, 2023
    IntentionalButt, Jul 12, 2023
    #1
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  2. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

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    Interestingly - it is an interesting sport, is it not? - it is I think entirely possible (and reasonable) for someone to hold that Benítez beats McCallum h2h but fares worse against T4K overall than him. Or vice-versa.
     
    IntentionalButt, Jul 12, 2023
    IntentionalButt, Jul 12, 2023
    #2
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  3. Flo_Raiden

    Flo_Raiden Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Pretty much agree with your assessment. McCallum has the best shot against the Duran and can outbox him in a 8-4 type decision. Against Hearns I think McCallum has a 50-50 chance to beat Hearns down the stretch with a late round stoppage should Hearns choose to not fight smart. If Hearns decides to box more and be more patient like he did against Benitez I can see his long jab being a problem for McCallum and can outbox him and win by decision.

    Hagler and Leonard will cause McCallum the most issues. They had all the tools, ring smarts, and physical athleticism to beat McCallum quite convincingly.
     
    Flo_Raiden, Jul 12, 2023
    Flo_Raiden, Jul 12, 2023
    #3
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  4. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    To copy and paste my post.

    He loses to them all if they're fighting at their very best.

    Loses to Duran at 154 by close decision.

    Loses to Hearns by UD at 154 but competitive.

    Loses to Hagler 160 by UD but competitive.

    Loses to Leonard at 160 by close decision.
     
    Dynamicpuncher, Jul 12, 2023
    Dynamicpuncher, Jul 12, 2023
    #4
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  5. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

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    In terms of the poll, I realize a lot of these are contests that most of us imagine would be close and hard to call (and "if they fought X number of times...", yadda-yadda). So we're looking for a "gun to your head" pick in first encounters with each, at whatever time and in whichever division that seems most sensible to happen.

    Gun to my head, MMM goes 2-2 here.
     
    IntentionalButt, Jul 12, 2023
    IntentionalButt, Jul 12, 2023
    #5
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  6. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The only one McCallum would have a chance against is Roberto Duran in a prime vs prime situation.
    And that's not guaranteed. And only because Duran's best fighting was at lightweight and welterweight.
    McCallum for all his ego was simply a very good boxer. Not great. His best wins were against boxers that had been exposed prior to when he faced them ( Curry, Kalule, McCory ) The greatest puncher but limited skill wise (J.Jackson) he lost to his best opponents ( Kalamby, Toney, Jones. JR)
    He'd lose to Hagler , Hearns, Leonard and Benitez because he couldn't match them physically. They'd all out point him because each at the least were equal to him in skill set, but had better physicality.
    McCallum cries about not being given a chance to fight against any of the 5 kings . But I believe it was simply a blessing for him. Against the very best of his own era, he lost.
    McCallum is greater in his own mind than he actually was. His record speaks to this truth.
     
    Flash24, Jul 12, 2023
    Flash24, Jul 12, 2023
    #6
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  7. ikrasevic

    ikrasevic Our pope is the Holy Spirit Full Member

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    IMO McCallum has the best chance to beat Roberto Duran at 160lbs.
     
    ikrasevic, Jul 12, 2023
    ikrasevic, Jul 12, 2023
    #7
  8. surfinghb

    surfinghb Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    at what weight is everything here for me ...

    Loses to Hagler
    Probably beats Duran
    Loses to Hearns and SRL at 154, but beats them both at 160 plus
     
    surfinghb, Jul 12, 2023
    surfinghb, Jul 12, 2023
    #8
  9. Philly161

    Philly161 "Fundamentals are the crutch of the talentless" banned Full Member

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    i dont understand how anybody can watch any of the fights you mentioned and come away with the conclusion that Mike McCallum wasn't a great boxer.

    first of all, all of his losses took place at middleweight or above, which his prime weight was 154 and that would be where I imagined him fighting Hearns, Leonard and Duran.

    he arguably won the first Toney fight, kept it very competitive in the second. this was absolute prime Toney. Jones Jr. was a light heavyweight fight. McCallum is top 2 at 154 but he wasn't a LHW and RJJ was a rare talent.

    guy was only really soundly beaten twice in his career, and both were at LHW when he was a natural super welter.

    not a great boxer? i guess we'll have to disagree there.
     
    Philly161, Jul 12, 2023
    Philly161, Jul 12, 2023
    #9
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  10. surfinghb

    surfinghb Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I agree.. And he did that into his 30's as he was 9 years older than Toney .. thats monumental
    He was never stopped and these guys aren't stopping him either .. Maybe Hagler
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2023
    surfinghb, Jul 12, 2023
    surfinghb, Jul 12, 2023
    #10
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  11. Cobra33

    Cobra33 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    If a totally shot Curry almost dropped Mike and was actually landing shots what the hell is going to happen when Hearns - who is faster and hits harder- finds Mikes chin?
    Milton Mccroy gave a very good account of himself taking the fight into the 10th round before being stopped by an accumulation of shots.
    And Milton isn't even close to a Hearns at jr.middle who in my opinion was one if not the greatest Jr.middle weight champions of all-time.
    Ask yourself how many rounds does a Sean Mannion last with a Hearns.
     
    Cobra33, Jul 12, 2023
    Cobra33, Jul 12, 2023
    #11
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  12. surfinghb

    surfinghb Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Hearns had durability issues BIGTIME .. Mike didnt .. those are the facts. I picked Hearns at 154, but he loses at 160 plus. Hearns more than often came up short against bigger stronger guys
     
    surfinghb, Jul 12, 2023
    surfinghb, Jul 12, 2023
    #12
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  13. surfinghb

    surfinghb Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    People fall in love with the Hearns right because of what it did to Duran and Cuevas and many other smaller men.. and rightfully so. Me too as he is my favorite fighter. But what they dont know or care to acknowledge that it has equally let him down ( SRL, Sutherland , Hagler, and Barkley) Hearns had many durability issues when it came to fighting bigger stronger men.. as the 4 examples I just gave ... At 147, SRL took what he had to give, At 160 he folded his right early against Sutherland, he broke it against Hagler, Barkley was too much for Hearns, he broke it against McCory in sparring, broke it against Benetitz, I can go on and on... To think the Hearns right is going to easily KO a bigger stronger fighter the Caliber of a Mike McCallum is out right laughable .. In fact , if anything, the opposite has rang true . .Hearns has durability issues, Mike didnt
     
    surfinghb, Jul 12, 2023
    surfinghb, Jul 12, 2023
    #13
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  14. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yeah I agree with you in hindsight, He was a great boxer. But not as great as he thinks he was....
    He still wouldn't be able to match the physicality and skills of a Leonard , Hagler , Hearns or even Benitez, they were just as skilled if not more so and better athletically than he was.
    But yeah skill wise he was top notch.
     
    Flash24, Jul 12, 2023
    Flash24, Jul 12, 2023
    #14
  15. Flash24

    Flash24 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I was being a little harsh. In a multiple Long Island Ice tea daze at Duffy's bar with my initial response lol
     
    Flash24, Jul 12, 2023
    Flash24, Jul 12, 2023
    #15
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