Did Liston Get Exposed By Ali

No because it was never duplicated.

 

I would wager that, after the Ali fights, Liston's management would be more likely to put him in with a polar bear than with a very mobile boxer.

 

It's not likely at all. Only source of evidence of him being 40 in 1970 is the 1940 census.

1950 census indicates he was born in 1922 and 1923.

A 1950 arrest record lists him as 22 which suggests a 1927 birthday (Arrest was January of '50). https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-st-louis-star-and-times/98275755/

Doctors estimated he was 38 to 41 in '64, and noted Liston's condition to be "particularly prevalent in older athletes".

Tony Galento also used Liston as a sparring partner according to reports. Source: https://www.newspapers.com/article/transcript-telegram/128249069/ It also states Liston has a 12 year old and 17 year old daughter, but I've been unable to confirm that so far. Will have to do more research when I have the time. It's very possible they were Geraldine's. Regardless, Galento retired at '43 which is the latest possible time, Liston and Galento could've sparred. I highly doubt Galento sparred a 13 year old boy.

 

Liston's age, a topic that pops up ever so frequently and will be discussed forever without a definitive answer. But all evidence points to Liston being older than he actually claimed. He looked dominant against Patterson regardless of his age due to styles and had the edge mentally as Patterson and practically everyone else in the division was intimidated by him. By the time Ali came around Liston lost motivation due to already reaching the top, still kept a competitive fight until he quit.

 

Great stuff yet again Swag.

Tbh, I always thought it was a mistaken conflation re Galento claiming to have sparred Liston - in so far as Galento only having said that Liston looked 40 yo being confused with Ezzard Charles saying he actually sparred Sonny.

But you’ve provided an article that point blank claims that Galento said he sparred Liston and the latest possible time for that during Two Ton’s active career was up to Dec 1944.

Damn, Liston is one of the most intriguing and compelling characters in boxing.

 

If true Galento wouldn't have been sparring a 12yo. He'd have to be an absolute minimum of 17 you'd think and Galento may have sparred him a bit prior to 44, i mean there's a decent chance of that. Even if we went 17 in 44 he's around 37 vs Ali.

Wow. Certainly food for thought.

 

I think you were right the first time about that one. Notice the article doesn't have an actual quote from Galento where he says he sparred with Liston. Interviewed, what Galento said was:

I think Liston is a lot older than the 29 years they call him. He looks to me like he's at least 40, and I never miss in calling a fighter's age.

https://ibb.co/0sLrF4J

But a day later there was an interview with Ezzard Charles where he said he agreed with Galento about Liston's age and recalled sparring with him before he won the title. A month after that you get this article claiming that it was Galento who said he sparred with Liston.

 

that’s not true. The findings of 1930 census together with the 1940 census makes it most likely that Charles Sonny Liston was born 1930. There is nobody else listed who it could be. Unless he is one of the older male Liston children from the 1940 census. 17 year old Leo, eleven-year-old Curtis and two-year-old Wesley, “Charles L” appears on record for the first time at 10 years old.

His age is given as “10”

the 1950 census looks to have been corrected with a pen. Who is the corresponding male Liston child that was born in 1923?


1920 United States Federal Census

Household Members Age Relationship

Tobe Liston

Helon Liston

Clara T Liston 0 Daughter

Bessie Liston 25 Daughter

Jomens Liston 19 Brother

Creola Liston 14 Sister

Ada Liston 10 Sister

Willie Liston 7 Sister

Elie Liston 78 Father

.

.

1930 United States Federal Census

Household Members Age Relationship

Tobin Liston 58 Head

Helen Liston 28 Wife

Willie May Liston 17 Daughter

Glitt Liston 9 Daughter

J T Liston 8 Son

Leo Liston 7 Son

Annie Liston 6 Daughter

Alcora Liston 2 Daughter

Curtis Liston 0 Son

Seal Eliesel 55 Lodger

.

.

1940 United States Federal Census

Household Members Age Relationship

Tabbie Liston 67 Head

Helen Liston 45 Wife

Leo Liston 17 Son

Annie Liston 15 Daughter

Cabbie Liston 13 Daughter

Curtis Liston 11 Son

Charlis T Liston 10 Son

Wesley Liston 2 Son

yes it lists him at 22. However, we can’t know if Liston was exploited because of his own illiteracy. Maybe the authorities “decided” Sonny be listed older in order to get him off the streets? To incarcerate him.

After all this time, There must be a reason why there still hasn’t been a confirmation for the 12 and 17 year old children Sonny supposedly fathered. Who are they and where are they now?

 

It’s just another excuse.

Sonny Liston was a professional athlete who had a shot at the biggest prize in all of sport. So what it got postponed — at least one of the Patterson fights got postponed so it wasn’t a new thing to him.

Ali-Foreman got postponed and Ali didn’t take his eyes off the prize. Same for many, many other fighters in history. But, oh, poor Sonny … it was just too much for him to maintain his conditioning and stay in training for a short spell.

What makes a champion, a boxer for the ages, is overcoming adversity. Henry Armstrong swallows a pint of blood (or whatever) with a horrible cut inside his mouth so he doesn’t get stopped and knocks his guy out. Marciano gets his nose split in half and turns it up a notch to stop Ezzard Charles. Buster Douglas’ dear mother dies and instead of throwing in the towel out of grief he turns it into motivation and fights the best fight of his life. But Sonny, a guy who had to wait longer than he should have for his first title shot … his schedule gets changed and it’s too damned much for him.

Boo freaking hoo.

The only ‘what if’ is what if he had to come up with a different excuse.

 

Please give me a source where Liston said he only lost, because the bout was postponed, and he'd stop training. Or admit you made it up.

 

Mentally Sonny Liston did get exposed, bullies are terrified of people who have mental conditions because there is no telling what the mentally ill are thinking or what they will do, many lack a conscience, many are Sociopaths, they hurt those that are civil to them. Liston in public was civil but he was a bully to his opponents in the ring. Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali) at the morning weigh in on Feb 25 1964 appeared to act out of mental control, tried to attack Liston, had to be held back by Sugar Ray Robinson, a self induced Hysteria, his blood pressure was hypertensive. The bout was threatened to be postponed until Clay's blood pressure was reduced to a normal level. This behavior shocked Liston's self esteem, creating some self doubt as the bout approached.

 

Springs Toledo who’s much respected and does his research had Liston as being born in July 1930 which would have made him 33 when he fought Ali the first time.
His name was absent on the 1930 Census but he was listed on the 1940 Census and he was listed as 10 years old.

 

Please give me a source where I said Sonny said anything.

Read the post I was quoting … which literally cited the delay as an excuse.

Reading is fundamental. You should try it sometime.

 

I didn’t say the delay was an excuse, I said it’s a “what if” in history.

For the record, I think Ali would’ve still won because he was the GOAT but it would’ve been interesting to see what would’ve happened against an in shape, motivated Liston. Would it have been more difficult, because peak Liston IMO was a top 10 ATG, or would it have given Ali an opportunity to make another statement of his own greatness?

And I have zero sympathy for Liston supposedly crawling into a bottle after the fight was delayed. Caca happens, you deal with it.