Why is Lennox Lewis considered a dominant champion?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by J.edwards_, Jul 15, 2023.


  1. J.edwards_

    J.edwards_ Member banned Full Member

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    I would like to know why so many consider Lennox Lewis to be a dominant heavyweight champion.

    Perhaps I am missing something but I think it is clear that until November 1999 Lennox Lewis never was THE man to beat in the division, yet I see a lot of his fans propagate this idea that he was dominating the 90s.

    And even when he became the real champion, he only defended three times before getting starched by a complete mediocrity and was very lucky to get an instant rematch, so for starters there really is no claim he was a dominant hard to beat champion ala a Tyson/Holmes, nor does he have many defenses as the real champ. To me during his 90s WBC reigns, Lewis was an alphabet champ, and describing an alphabet champ as dominant when there is another ‘real’ champ doesn’t quite work out.

    It is undeniable that he did clean out the division but I do not think that can be conflated with being a dominant champion either. You could feasibly argue that when Bowe stopped Holyfield in 1995 to decide the best HW on the planet, the division had largely been cleaned out, in much the same way as Lewis/Holyfield had both largely cleaned out the division when they fought in 1999 to decide who was the best HW. Yet only one gets credited for defeating a load of contenders/prospects and dominating, whilst the other is ‘take away Holyfield from his resume and he’s got nothing’. Double standard for me.

    I do respect Lewis for his achievements: I admire how he improved and turned his career round, he has a longish prime, and (although it sounds much better on paper) he was the last man standing of his era and has a solid resume, but one thing I cannot give him credit for is being this dominant champion that so many make out. I suspect that as the last ‘great’ heavyweight champion along with the ‘mythical 90s heavyweight division’, a large part of Lewis’ career has been rewritten.

    I would like to hear some other opinions on this, particularly from those following his career at the time.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2023
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  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    He was lineal champion from 1998 until 2004 minus those seven months after the Rahman loss. That is pretty impressive and not many hevayweights post-Louis can compare. Because he beat the last generation's names and the next generations best fighter (probably) that all adds up to a certain kind of feeling.

    I wonder who, except Louis and Ali, had more months as champ? Marciano maybe? Holmes? Wladimir is a complex case.
     
  3. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    A few reasons:

    1) He avenged both his losses, defeating every fighter he ever fought. Of the retired lineal HW champions throughout all of history, only Gene Tunney & Rocky Marciano can claim the same;

    2) He was 9-1-1 in lineal HW title fights. 10-1 on fair scorecards, avenging that sole defeat in an immediate rematch. Only Louis, Ali, Holmes, Wlad & Burns have won more lineal HW world title fights;

    3) He was lineal HW champion for a cumulative total of c.6-years. Only Louis, Ali, Holmes, Dempsey, Johnson, Wlad & Jeffries were the champion for longer.
     
  4. J.edwards_

    J.edwards_ Member banned Full Member

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    Yes I agree the Klitschko win in his last fight definitely does give his reign a better feeling.

    I do think lineage/alphabet belts do get very subjective and you could chop years off Holmes’ reign applying various logic.

    I think Lewis’ credentials do appear better on paper than actually were. To me he beat the real champion Holyfield in 1999 to then become the real champ, despite the Briggs lineal win in 98 so his reign was 99-2003. I might be in a minority here. But I think the fact he got one shotted smack bang in his prime and was lucky to get an undeserving rematch should rule out any dominance to his reign. The fact is when Tyson/Holyfield got separated from their titles it needed 2 ATG championship performances, whereas with Lewis it needed a half decent right hand, which to me cancels out the fantastic Klitschko win.

    I get the length of months point, but I think it falls apart because you could mash Holyfield’s various championship reigns together and get a longer period than Tyson for example, yet only one of them was really dominant.
     
  5. J.edwards_

    J.edwards_ Member banned Full Member

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    Defeating every fighter you faced is irrelevant when it comes down to being a dominant champ. Did Tyson beat everyone he faced? No. Was he a dominant champ? Yes.

    Lineal as well. Beating Briggs meant absolutely nothing. Lewis was not THE champion. Holyfield was. Lewis was the other champ. Let’s be fair and start his reign from Holyfield 2 onwards. He’s 5-1 then.

    Cumulative years don’t mean much either. Holyfield is what 7 cumulative years as a champ? Was he a dominant champ? No.

    It’s these meaningless ‘beat every man he faced’ facts and numbers without context that do not convince me that Lewis was a dominant champion. Having to mash them all together to claim he was dominant rather than simply stating that he was going unbeaten against his competition in a substantial reign like the other dominant champs is why I’m not convinced.
     
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  6. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I don't think beating every challenger he defended the title against is irrelevant to how dominant Lewis was as a champion. On the contrary, it's clearly material. Only 3 x other HW lineal champions in boxing's c.130-year history can claim the same.

    You have asked why Lewis is considered a dominant champion. Your interpretation of who "THE" champion was, is irrelevant to when others consider him "THE" champion, which for most is from Briggs onwards.

    No, Holyfield was lineal champion for around a combined 2.5-years (Oct 1990 - Nov 92; and Nov 93 - Apr 94).

    You consider Tyson a dominant champion. Ok, let's compare his lineal reign with those of Lewis:

    • Tyson - Lineal title record = 3-2; reign length = 20-months;
    • Lewis - Lineal title record = 9-1-1 (10-1 on fair scorecards); reign length = A) 3-years; and B) c.3-years

    Even with your unique interpretation of when Lewis was "THE" champion, his 5-1 is more dominant than Tyson's 3-2.

    Even if we just measure dominance of alphabet strap reigns:

    • Tyson - most dominant "reign" was his 9 x defences in the 3-years 3-months after beating Berbick. Total ABC strap title record = 12-4
    • Lewis - most dominant "reign" was his 9 x defences, in the 4-years 2-months after beating McCall. Total ABC strap title record = 16-2-1 (17-2 on fair scorecards)

    There is literally no objective, quantifiable measure where Tyson is a more dominant champion than Lewis.

    How's that for context?
     
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  7. jabber74

    jabber74 Active Member Full Member

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    I never considered Lewis that. Like if someone said the dominant heavyweight greats went "Ali, Holmes, Tyson... and then Lewis", I never saw it that way.

    To me, during the 90s there were different fighters in the division all winning and losing at different times. I don't think of any one of them that I would consider the "dominant" heavyweight at that time. Tyson was in prison, Holyfield and Bowe were busy taking turns beating each other up, Moorer wins and loses fights. Holyfield wins and loses fights. Lewis was KO'ed and then had some fights he didn't look all that great., so I wouldn't say he was the dominant heavyweight.

    I thought Bowe could have been the next great heavyweight champion for that decade, but he was not disciplined enough and gave it away.

    So I guess if you wanted to still put Lewis in front of the rest you could make a case for him.
     
  8. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    All the lineal nonsense aside, he waded through the collection of hardest hitting heavyweights on any championship resume and avenged his only losses in rather emphatic fashion (I guess McCall2 was emphatic),
     
  9. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    This.
     
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  10. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Now Deceased 2/4/25 Full Member

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    Some try to block out the fact that Lennox Lewis had his clock cleaned out by Hassim Rahman and Oliver McCall, denial.
     
  11. J.edwards_

    J.edwards_ Member banned Full Member

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    The amount of stock you put in lineal is ridiculous. Was Holmes not the real champ in 78/79 after defeating the other best heavyweight on the planet in one of the great championship fights?? Or was it still Ali?

    For me we need to apply common sense here. Holyfield beating Tyson in one of the highest grossing iconic championship upsets is clearly in this case a far stronger claim than beating the Foreman bum of the month robbery in Briggs.

    Tyson was making big waves in the division even before Berbick. When he beat Berbick he now was the big deal in the division. I don’t think Lewis’ mixed showings around 97/98 can be compared to what Tyson was doing. Spinks was still lineal but not at the forefront of the division, getting stripped etc. Holyfield was THE man still when Lewis was lineal.

    Even still Tyson’s consistent dominance of a far better set of heavyweights and the fact his loss came in a monumental upset ATG stars aligning performance rather than Lewis early starching to an utter mediocrity should put this all to bed.

    Oh and Tyson starched a never been stopped old Holmes early. Lewis went 24 competitive rounds with an old Holyfield who was fighting 30 second a round and there are some knowledgeable guys who score the second fight for Holyfield or a draw lol.

    I cannot see any argument for Lewis being more dominant than Tyson. I think we need some common sense in here. Caliber of performances, quantity of defenses, consistency, invincibility, performance required to take titles all favour Tyson. It’s not really close.
     
  12. J.edwards_

    J.edwards_ Member banned Full Member

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    Yes I get the case for Lewis, but I find it funny when his fans pretend he was leagues ahead of Bowe/Holyfield and by far the best 90s heavyweight. I’m not certain that Lewis for certain achieved more than Bowe in the decade either.

    It would not have surprised me at all of a young fresh Holyfield would’ve outhustled Lewis. Their second fight was awfully close and that was an ancient Holyfield. And accusations of ducking aside I think Lewis would’ve been in big trouble against Bowe.
     
  13. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Now Deceased 2/4/25 Full Member

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    Muhammad Ali retired as WBA Heavyweight Champion in 1979 following his record winning of the title 3 times. Ken Norton defeated Jimmy Young on Nov 5 1977 by split 15 round decision in a WBC title eliminator. When Leon Spinks refused to fight mandatory WBC no.1 contender Norton, Ken was awarded the title. On June 9 1978 Larry Holmes defeated Ken Norton by split 15 round decision to win the WBC Title. On Oct 20 1979, John Tate defeated Gerrie Goetzee to win the vacant WBA title by unanimous decision. Negotiations broke down later to unify the WBC and WBA title in early 1980.
     
  14. J.edwards_

    J.edwards_ Member banned Full Member

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    Not just that. I wouldn’t even rate the guy that highly even without those losses. I have been watching most of his pro fights recently and the guy is completely overrated on these forums. Consistently lackadaisical, plodding and lacking killer instinct. I think the jury’s out whether from his own generation he was a better fighter or even as good as Bowe/Holyfield/Tyson. I certainly think Lewis was an underachiever for all the attributes he had. Lacks X-factor to be called a great for me.
     
  15. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Now Deceased 2/4/25 Full Member

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    Heck, Got badly staggered by Vitali Klitchko in his last title bout, who knows what would have happened if not for the cut on Vitali's eyebrow.