Did Liston Get Exposed By Ali

Too true, very naughty but he was still a Boxing Messiah.

 

Indeed he was. Still revered to this very day.

 

I agree. His annihilation of Floyd Patterson who is an ATG not once but twice puts him in rarefied company. Ali flummoxed him. There was never anybody like him in the hw division. Maybe Walcott but he wasn't as big, wasn't as fast, and wasn't as strong.

 

Hey Man

Some time back I linked a somewhat rare clip of Liston training for the rematch in Boston. Liston looked to be in terrific shape, a bit edgy, pretty angry and ready to fight. I think they said he was already 215 lb or a bit below as at the time of the IV/clip. He was projecting to come in at 212 lb I recall - an absolute optimal weight for Liston. Elsewhere, I have read that Liston had got himself as low as 208 lb.

The fight wasn't just postponed. It was postponed at the 11th hour - I believe the clip in question was filmed only about 3 days prior to the originally scheduled date and venue.

Given Liston's age and the extreme effort it would've taken to get himself mentally and physically back as best as was possible, (and Liston had already done 99.9% of the required work to be ready) - it is MORE than reasonable to believe that the postponement punctured Sonny heavily. Meanwhile, Ali was just a kid, never having fallen back into bad shape and still very much able to bounce back from the hernia surgery. At 206 lb, Ali was absolutely shredded for the eventual rematch, nothing wrong and ready to go.

The original link that I posted to clip is now broken. Damn. It came from the channel named Ali's Greatest Fight Collection or something very similar. The problem is the footage wasn't specifically labelled. Rather, it was embedded in 1 hour plus of miscellaneous footage.

I can only say in my original link, that I specified that the clip started at the 44 min mark. I'm going to try find it again, a lot of possible videos to plough through - but if anyone can help out with it, that'd be cool. If you're interested, the best I can offer atm, is this SI Vault article describing Liston's steely resolve for the originally scheduled rematch.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1964/11/02/the-prefight-moods-of-sonny-liston

 

Liston was certainly would up and ready to go. Definitely no fix in the mix at that stage you'd think.

 

This had to be said. Not Listons fault that these views became popular, but because they are popular it’s unfair on all the other champions

 

An odd response. I think it's a what if too. It's not saying that Liston would have won either, just that a fully focused, properly trained Liston results in a very different and much harder fight. That does not equate to taking anything away from Ali's accomplishments or saying Ali would have lost. I think if the fight had gone ahead on schedule Ali beats Liston, but in a much harder fight than the first and certainly not a one round stoppage. There are contemporary reports and articles that say Liston had got himself into great condition for the rematch and was very focused. Bob Mee, David Remick, Jonathan Eig, Springs Toledo Thomas Hauser's books all point to the hernia and delay having had a negative effect on Liston. After the delay he was drinking, not training in the same way and lost his focus. Do not understand the defensiveness over that acknowledgement.

Thinking it would have been a very different fight than how it actually panned out is not necessarily making excuses for anyone is it? It's just looking at all aspects. Your responses seem to be fixated on saying people are making excuses and the what if phrase.

 

Liston was an uneducated man but he was not a stupid man and he probably understood the ramifications, understood the clock was ticking and wanted the title back. That’s a lot of motivation to work.

Like I tried to say, I still think Ali wins the second ‘64 fight because he was too fast for Sonny and I don’t think it was a great stylistic match for Sonny. My sense is it would’ve been more difficult. But it is not out of the realm of possibility for it to have been like Lewiston although I think Sonny would have tried to get up if he’d gotten popped. I really think what happened in Maine was he said, “The hell with this.”

But we will never know for sure.

And please let’s have fun discussing the possibilities and hypotheticals.

 

I think Sonny was a great enough fighter without needing the excuses.

his career was halted by a prison sentence where by he missed just about all of 1956 and 1957. He fought just 2 times in 1961. One time in 1962. One time in 1963. He gets no credit for losing career momentum for those years.

Rather than invent excuse for what “could have happened” or what he “could have done” I recon it makes Sonny a great fighter that he achieved what he did in spite of so many disrupted years.

He really doesn’t need to be older than he was or handcuffed to lose after that. It would have been hard for another great fighter to remain successful.

Sonny made incredible progress in 1958, 1959 and 1960.

It set him up for the The two fights with Patterson. Who by then was a tired champion. But because the two fights with Floyd took two whole years to pass and were far too easy for Liston it’s understandable folks got even more carried away about Sonny than they should have.

Nobody expected Sonny to age so much from 1960 to 1964 but look at Joe Louis from 1942 to 1946. Or Muhammad Ali from 1974 to 1978 or Larry Holmes from 1981 to 1985

Sonny was just like the rest of them. After 3 good years it’s Hard to expect too much after another 3 years.

 

Muhammad was bigger than Sonny, stronger than Sonny, more athletic than Sonny, faster than Sonny, had better reflexes than Sonny. The only advantage Sonny had was in reach and in resume and he could only bring the former in the ring with him.

 

Biggest load of nuthuggin bollocks I've ever seen on this forum.

 

Who is this "he" you're referring to then if not Liston?

You've also previously accused Liston of making an excuse regarding his confirmed shoulder injury, despite him never doing so. I could easily pull up the post if you'd like so be very careful lying about it.

 

I think the reach was negligible. When Ali finally sat down on his jabs in the last round he was outjabbing Sonny within an equal long range distance. And they fought that round at a walk. Ali was not dancing anymore. So it wasn’t like he was creating an extra inch of reach leaping in from way outside.

The edge Sonny had on paper going in was two handed punch power and experience. But, as it turned out, Ali’s elusive movement negated the punch and Ali’s recent higher ring activity negated the experience.

 

Liston had to wait until May 25 1965 to get that rematch with Muhammad Ali, originally it had been scheduled for Nov 16 1964 in Boston but Ali's Hernia surgery postponed the rematch.