Why did Ken Norton's jab trouble Ali so much but Liston's didn't?

Norton's trainer Eddie Futch spotted that when Ali threw his jab his right hand would be out of defensive position.Eddie instructed Norton to jab as soon as Ali did.

 

Because back in 1964 Muhammad Ali possessed all of his physical gifts at age 22, the footwork, speed, timing, stamina and reflexes. In 1973 at age 31 Ali no longer possessed the legs, stamina or reflexes to get away from blows that he once had been able to evade, his physical conditioning was also very poor.

 

Thanks for that, Mac. Didn't know that. Cheers. I might also add that Ali's reflexes were better at that stage of his career than the Norton version.

 

View their first bout. As I recall (and it's been a while), Norton's jab wasn't really a factor in their first two bouts despite what Futch said. Ken's overhand right was the issue. It fractured Ali's jaw in the second round just as Muhammad had it open to trash talk, and Ferdie Pachecho pinpointed exactly which overhand right it was in his voice over of that bout.

In the second bout, Ali ducked that overhand right. Ken's best was really to the body, as Muhammad's right handed power wobbled Ken severely with 50 seconds left in round six.

Forget what Futch said about Norton's jab against Ali. You must watch the actual bouts themselves to evaluate the veracity of Eddie's claims for yourself. Again, keep in mind by looking at Ali's corner work during their first bout following round two that Dundee is not touching the left side of Ali's face in their corner. Futch and Norton were mistaken in claiming that the fracture occurred in the 12th and final round. It clearly happened in round two, impacting the remainder of their first bout dramatically.

Norton's unorthodox style would have made their first match difficult even if Ali had had his impacted wisdom tooth removed and healed beforehand, but does Kenny win that first match without that second round jaw fracture? It's possible, because Ali wasn't ready for that overhand right negating Ali's lean. Again, in their second bout, Muhammad adapted by effectively ducking Kenny's overhand right instead of trying to lean back from it.

Holmes didn't do that, having always been a tall heavyweight. Ducking taller opposition with an overhand right like Norton's wasn't really in Larry's defensive arsenal.

 

I doubt Norton would achieve that same success against the Ali that Liston faced

 

Different versions of Ali. Liston doesn’t lose to that version of Ali either imo.

 

Timing. Norton always had his head cocked to the side with his paw ready to catch a jab, his whole style on the outside was jab neutralizing. Norton was excellent at timing the jab and jabbing back. That's why he was able to turn the Holmes fight into a dogfight, gave Ali (albeit faded Ali) trouble and also why he had trouble if his opponent wasn't much of a jabber. The words from Norton in the film "Facing Ali" was that he would pop his jab any time he noticed Ali's chest flexing to throw, which is where he focused his eyes, the sternum. Not the hands, shoulders, or eyes.

Norton has one of the best jab-pick-jab combos of all time.

 

Norton (Ali 1 fight) was not as defensive as Liston.
Ali(Liston 1) was younger and faster than against Norton.
Ali was more motivated when he won the title than in the Norton 1 fight.

 

This

 

Good question.

 

Good answer. Timing.

 

A few things that will be mentioned by Ken and biographers:
a) Norton jabbed with Ali, per Futch's instructions, as Ali habitually held his right hand low. Norton never tried to outjab Ali per se, but rather break his rhythm, frustrate him and eventually get him on the ropes. Without the jab Muhammad couldn't get started.
b) Norton mentions seeing a twitch in Ali's muscle when he was about to throw.

As to why Sonny failed to replicate that: might be that he didn't had the above strategems in mind, but most likely he was old, against Ali in his athletic prime.

 

So true, Ali vs Liston I was in Feb 1964, Ali vs Norton I was in March 1973.

 

Excellent breakdowns by one and all.

I’ll just add, Liston’s jab in 64 was that bit slower than the one he displayed in his prime - even after accounting for the relative measure against Ali’s own speed, mobility and reflexes.