Why did Ken Norton's jab trouble Ali so much but Liston's didn't?

Ha ha, excellent.

 

A reference only the Brit's of our generation here might make. Even though I'm a Swede myself, I do love British comedy and that was one of its high points.

 

The previous link I provided described Dr Robbins of the Miami Commission diagnosing Liston with a torn tendon in his left shoulder.

Here’s the extract (see below), in which it directly states that the Commission Doctor “diagnosed” - but I understand that it could still possibly be interpreted that the Commission doctors diagnosis was in deference to the team of doctors examination and diagnosis - but the agreement of 8 doctors isn’t too shabby - perhaps they were locked in a room with Sonny who politely “dictated” his own diagnosis to them.

Given Liston’s “background”….. in medicine, who were they to disagree?


"Dr. Alexander Robbins, chief physician for the Miami Beach Boxing Commission, diagnosed Liston with a torn tendon in his left shoulder. During the night, a team of eight doctors inspected Liston’s arm at St. Francis Hospital in Miami Beach and agreed that it was too badly damaged for Liston to continue fighting (Gallender 2012)."

 

He could have diagnosed on the examination the 8 doctors did (which I think included an x-ray) and it seems that was the case rather than that he did a wholly independent examination.

Liston didn't have to dictate anything since he was backed by people who controlled the unions and gambling among other things. It wouldn't surprise me if they had some doctors on their payroll. That was in any case the thought expressed by a reporter as quoted in Hauser's book.

Why there were 8 of them I do not know. One is usually enough, not sure what the other 7 did. Gave 7 separate second opinions during one night? Seems a bit overkill.

 

Liston “dictating” anything was a joke.

We still don’t know if the Commission Doctor didn’t examine Liston directly. We know, at the very least, that he might’ve deferred to the opinions of the 8 other doctors.

The rest is a lot of assuming which is actually looking to debunk the legitimacy of Liston’s claimed injury - dismissing the opinions of 8 doctors and the Commission Doctor’s deference to those physicians (at the very least - BUT the Commission Doctor still might’ve examined Liston himself).

Also, no matter how much or what evidence is given, anyone can “reach” for mobster influence and intervention - notably without providing any evidence of same or explanation of the exact logistics involved to enable the mob to “get at” everyone.

It’s like when people explain that a magic trick is done with smoke and mirrors - they’re not actually explaining anything.

Throughout boxing history people have often jumped to the “Mob” to “explain” stuff that they personally can’t reconcile themselves with.

This is a photo of Dr Alexander Robbins himself indicating the injured area, suffice to say, it appears he was reasonably “hands on” himself re the diagnosis: -

https://www.gettyimages.com.au/deta...-physician-of-the-boxing-news-photo/515097622

 

It seems many who think the injury is legit is happy to jump to the mob connection for the rematch and say it was a fix. So the mob could apparently fix a world title fight, to the detriment of their fighter, but not buy a doctors' report to salvage said fighter's reputation.

The fact is in any case that Liston was controlled by the mob at a time when the mob was very powerful. So of course any explanations involving the mob is closer to hand.


Anyhow, if I were to break down what we know:

Liston shows no symtoms of injury during the fight, not even to specialists going through it by freeze frame. According to a cornerman the whole thing is made up on the spot. The reporter Mort Sharnik was with Liston in the hospital and said to Hauser that Liston quit as not to get knocked out. He quotes Liston as saying "That's not the guy I was supposed to fight. That guy could punch." He also quotes Liston's manager as asking "What in the world will do with Sonny?" But nothing about an injury stopping Sonny.

A doctors' examination, accepted by the commission, confirms an injury, a torn rotator cuff that made it impossible for Liston to continue.

Nothing, as far as I know, has ever been said about any operation or any form of rehabilitation after this. Nine months later Liston is said to have been in top form, without any mention of effects from the injury, before the rematch that then was postponed due to Ali's hernia.


To me this is not the look of an open and shut case.

 

Vitali went 12 rounds 7 months after quitting against Byrd and then fought again two months later. By the time Liston was said to be in top shape Vitali had fought twice so i don't think this particular part is overly important.

 

Fair enough.

 

Who's happy to jump to the mob connection for the rematch? They're not closer to hand unless you know something no one else knows.

If that's what some people think, it's again another case of a claim without any evidence or sufficient explanation of the required logistics involved.

For one thing (and remember, it's just one thing), WHY would it be worth the mob's while to have Liston surrender a title from which more money could be made if that title was retained?

IF the mob did control Liston, it doesn't mean they controlled the outcome of his fights. Provide another instance in which there is suspicion that the mob had a hand in the outcome of any other of Liston's fights.

IF Liston did quit of his own volition - that has nothing to do with the Mob, who I imagine wouldn't have been too pleased with Liston's "surrender" IF, again, they were "controlling" Liston.

But you also have the same mob pulling multiple strings in order to "cover" for Liston in regard to the shoulder injury. That's a shot gun approach, calling in anything and everything to claim illegitimacy but leaving you with a number of non sequiturs in your argument.

I provided a link that gave the official, hands-on diagnosis and an "observed" (per the film) diagnosis after the fact. An evenhanded treatment. You originally tried to suggest that the Commission Doctor had no part in the official diagnosis - it's since been proven that he did in fact have a hand - even it was in deference to a team of 8 doctors (repeat, at the least -it appears the Commission Doctor likely examined Liston himself also to some extent if not fully).

Due respect, but you are falling very much prey to confirmation bias. Dismissing and trying to explain away what we do know - whilst making big assumptions and putting more weight into those assumptions than the facts as we know them.

 

I'm not really versed at all in the history of boxers having back injuries, but it's kind of interesting Patterson and Tyson both had back issues, I wonder how much of it was due to their style and Cus always emphasizing maximum speed and power for every punch and the lumbar rotation required for his combinations

 

Don't know what you think you proved with the commission. We seem to agree that it didn't examine Liston but went on the other doctors' conclusions.

As for the rest I've made clear that there are several things pointing in another direction. A corner man who claimed bs on the whole thing and a reporter that was with Liston in the hospital without reporting anything about an injury, but coming away with the belief that Liston quit.

Than it was the study that didn't detect any symtoms of such an injury, that you were kind to provide.

I presented that as things we know.

That the mob possibly bought the doctors has only been presented by me as just a hypothetic possibility.

The other things casting doubt are facts, though. It's them that casting doubt, not solely that he was connected to the mob.

 

Re the commission, I’ve proven exactly what I’ve written.

Do you think the Commission Doctor was any more adept than the 8 doctors who examined Liston at the hospital?

I could have an educated guess that the Commission Doctor did his own precursory checks before Liston was later more throughly examined in the hospital.

If it was only the Commission Doctor who examined and diagnosed the injury, would the accusation then be that HE was paid off (easy since it was just ONE man) and WHY weren’t there other doctors called in for the diagnosis?

See how confirmation bias works?

The question really is HOW much reasonable proof is possible and would you continue reject that proof anyway - given your being predisposed that Liston quit on a fake injury?

As you might have it - Liston quit without injury - unlikely a directive from the mob - but the mob somehow got to 8 doctors and the Commissions physician to falsify their examinations and report a legitimate injury.

There were also X Rays taken - only possible at the hospital. When analysing the truth of such matters, you have to ask critical questions - but you have skipped or over-sighted this fact.

I would ask who is the cornerman alleged to have claimed that the injury was fake? - likewise, who was the non physician reporter who claimed same?

As thin as the details are on them and their lack of qualifications at any rate, they seem to be getting disproportionate weight and mileage in your analysis.

Not being disrespectful, I just feel, based on what we do have - that there is far more evidence of a legitimate injury than not. In fact, there is no evidence against a legitimate injury - only assumptions (mot facts) .that are predisposed and somewhat slanted

Here’s another article which might be of interest to you: -

https://www.nytimes.com/1964/02/27/...e-purse-doctors-report-on-listons-injury.html

 

Swede? Very cool (no pun intended).

I am in some part Swede myself though I’m not sure which part. Haha.

More seriously, I do have a great, great etc. Grandfather who sailed out from Sweden sometime in the 1870s/1880s. His name was Peter Anderson, a salty Sea Captain.

I say salty, because we were fortunate enough to obtain a photo of him from way back when - he was featured in some newspaper of the day and he appeared to be a tad on the angry side - not uncommon for posed photos and long exposures required back then.

We were lucky that my Dad was big on family trees. My ancestors name was Peter Anderson, which I guess might’ve been quite common a name in Sweden but we definitely got the right one.

Anyway, I am the President of the Ingemar Johansson Fan Club in these parts - which entails undying loyalty and allows for extreme bias when discussing all things Ingo, especially when it pertains to his imagined performances (read: uniform victories) in fantasy matches.

 

Because Ali was never the same after the almost 4 years of layoff. But also because Norton had such an unorthodox style that Ali went 39 rounds with him all three coming inside the distance.

 

It’s just down to application. Sonny Liston did the wrong things, Ken Norton didn’t. With the right timing your jab can be any sort you want it to be pretty much. It’s been beaten like a dead horse but yes Eddie Futch instructed Ken Norton to “Jab with him”