Is Marvin Hagler the original ‘reclining champion’?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Saintpat, Jul 31, 2023.


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  1. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Through the 1970s and 1980s — and even before — world champion boxers defended their titles three or four or more times per year.

    It wasn’t usual to see Muhammad Ali or Larry Holmes log four title defenses in a calendar year, same for Wilfredo Gomez and other lighter-weight fighters.

    Nowadays, it’s two fights a year for the top names … if we’re lucky. Sometimes one or even no fights — and not because of injuries taking guys out of action. It’s just the norm.

    So where did it start? I nominate Marvelous Marvin as the OG in this sort of leisurely schedule.

    Here’s a look at some of his championship years;

    1982: Two fights

    1984: Two fights

    1985: One fight

    1986: One fight

    1987: One fight

    That’s seven total fights spread over five years of his championship days at a time when his contemporaries were often fighting that much over two back-to-back years. For the majority of his reign, Marvin was on a slower pace than the rest of the game as far as title defenses.

    Is he the one who started the trend, or was he just ahead of his time?
     
    Saintpat, Jul 31, 2023
    Saintpat, Jul 31, 2023
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  2. AntonioMartin1

    AntonioMartin1 Jeanette Full Member

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    Well, he did have 3 fights in 1981 and 1983 each..
     
    AntonioMartin1, Jul 31, 2023
    AntonioMartin1, Jul 31, 2023
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  3. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yes but his schedule over the course of his reign is far more, let’s say ‘paced,’ than that of his contemporaries.

    He certainly never pressed it to four (many guys did four or even five, and some of them also did non-title bouts in between) and his years with three are more than balanced by his years with one or two.

    Just kind of interesting as he’s considered by reputation as a workhorse kind of champ and he was very deliberate in his championship pace.
     
    Saintpat, Jul 31, 2023
    Saintpat, Jul 31, 2023
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  4. Bronze Tiger

    Bronze Tiger Boxing Addict Full Member

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    He’s also considered by reputation as a champion who would fight anyone…anywhere…anytime..,,however Mike Mccallum disagrees
     
    Bronze Tiger, Jul 31, 2023
    Bronze Tiger, Jul 31, 2023
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  5. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    As does Wilfred Benitez, who called him out after beating Duran.

    I guess he’d fight anyone, anywhere at any time … as long as it fit his schedule.
     
    Saintpat, Jul 31, 2023
    Saintpat, Jul 31, 2023
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  6. kingfisher3

    kingfisher3 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    his career was right when fighter pay went up significantly.

    he lived the life he wanted, good for him.
     
    kingfisher3, Jul 31, 2023
    kingfisher3, Jul 31, 2023
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  7. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Jim Corbett
    1892 - 1 title fight (Sullivan)
    1893 - no title fights
    1894 - 1 title fight (Mitchell)
    1895 - no title fights
    1896 - no title fights
    1897 - 1 title fight (Fitszimmons)

    Bob Fitzsimmons
    1897 - 1 title fight (Corbett)
    1898 - no title fights
    1899 - 1 title fight (Jeffries)

    Jim Jeffries
    1899 - 2 title fights (Fitz and Sharkey)
    1900 - 2 title fights (Finnegan and Corbett)
    1901 - 1 title fight (Ruhlin)
    1902 - 1 title fight (Fitz)
    1903 - 1 title fight (Corbett)
    1904 - 1 title fight (Munroe)

    Jack Johnson
    1908 - 1 title fight (Burns)
    1909 - 3 title fights (O'Brien, Kaufman and Ketchel)
    1910 - 1 title fight (Jeffries)
    1911 - no title fights
    1912 - 1 title fight (Flynn)
    1913 - 1 title fight (Jim Johnson)
    1914 - 1 title fight (Moran)
    1915 - 1 title fight (Willard)

    Jess Willard
    1915 - 1 title fight (Johnson)
    1916 - 1 title fight (Moran)
    1917 - no fights
    1918 - no fights
    1919 - 1 title fight (Dempsey)

    Jack Dempsey
    1919 - 1 title fight (Willard)
    1920 - 2 title fights (Miske and Brennan)
    1921 - 1 title fight (Carpentier)
    1922 - no fights
    1923 - 2 title fights (Gibbons and Firpo_
    1924 - no fights
    1925 - no fights
    1926 - 1 title fight (Tunney)

    Gene Tunney
    1926 - 1 title fight (Dempsey)
    1927 - 1 title fight (Dempsey)
    1928 - 1 title fight (Heeney)

    Max Schmeling
    1930 - 1 title fight (Sharkey)
    1931 - 1 title fight (Stribling)
    1932 - 1 title fight (Sharkey)

    Jack Sharkey
    1932 - 1 title fight (Schmeling)
    1933 - 1 title fight (Carnera)

    Primo Carnera
    1933 - 2 title fights (Sharkey and Uzcudun)
    1934 - 2 title fights (Loughran and Baer)

    Max Baer
    1934 - 1 title fight (Carnera)
    1935 - 1 title fight (Braddock)

    Jim Braddock
    1935 - 1 title fight (Baer)
    1936 - no title fights
    1937 - 1 title fight (Louis)
     
    Dubblechin, Jul 31, 2023
    Dubblechin, Jul 31, 2023
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  8. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Rocky Marciano
    1952 - 1 title fight (Walcott)
    1953 - 2 title fights (Walcott and LaStarza)
    1954 - 2 title fights (Charles twice)
    1955 - 2 title fights (Cockell and Moore)

    Floyd Patterson
    1956 - 1 title fight (Moore)
    1957 - 2 title fights (Jackson and Rademacher)
    1958 - 1 title fight (Harris)
    1959 - 2 title fights (London and Johansson)

    Ingemar Johansson
    1959 - 1 title fight (Patterson)
    1960 - 1 title fight (Patterson)

    Floyd Patterson (second reign)
    1960 - 1 title fight (Johansson)
    1961 - 2 title fights (Johansson and McNeeley)
    1962 - 1 title fight (Liston)

    Sonny Liston
    1962 - 1 title fight (Patterson)
    1963 - 1 title fight (Patterson
    1964 - 1 title fight (Ali)

    Muhammad Ali
    1964 - 1 title fight (Liston)
    1965 - 2 title fights (Liston and Patterson)
    1966 - 5 title fights (Chuvalo, Cooper, London, Mildenberger, Williams)
    1967 - 2 title fights (Terell and Folley)

    Jimmy Ellis (WBA)
    1968 - 2 title fights (Quarry and Patterson)
    1969 - no title fights
    1970 - 1 title fight (Frazier)

    Joe Frazier
    1968 - 3 title fights (Mathis, Ramos, Bonavena)
    1969 - 2 title fights (Zyglewicz and Quarry)
    1970 - 2 title fights (Ellis and Foster)
    1971 - 1 title fight (Ali)
    1972 - 2 title fights (Daniels and Stander)
    1973 - 1 title fight (Foreman)

    George Foreman
    1973 - 2 title fights (Frazier and Roman)
    1974 - 2 title fights (Norton and Ali)

    Muhammad Ali (second reign)
    1974 - 1 title fight (Foreman)
    1975 - 4 title fights (Wepner, Lyle, Bugner, Frazier)
    1976 - 4 title fights (Coopman, Young, Dunn, Norton)
    1977 - 2 title fights (Evangelista and Shavers)
    1978 - 2 title fights (Spinks both)

    Leon Spinks
    1978 - 2 title fights (Ali twice)

    Ken Norton
    1978 - 1 title fight (Holmes)

    John Tate (WBA)
    1979 - 1 title fight (Coetzee)
    1980 - 1 title fight (Weaver)

    Mike Weaver (WBA)
    1980 - 2 title fights (Tate and Coetzee)
    1981 - 1 title fight (Tillis)
    1982 - 1 title fight (Dokes)

    Michael Dokes (WBA)
    1982 - 1 title fight (Weaver)
    1983 - 2 title fights (Weaver and Coetzee)

    Gerrie Coetzee (WBA)
    1983 - 1 title fight (Dokes)
    1984 - 1 title fight (Page)

    Greg Page (WBA)
    1984 - 1 title fight (Coetzee)
    1985 - 1 title fight (Tubbs)

    Tim Witherspoon (WBC)
    1984 - 2 title fights (Page and Thomas)

    Pinklon Thomas (WBC)
    1984 - 1 title fight (Witherspoon)
    1985 - 1 title fight (Weaver)
    1986 - 1 title fight (Berbick)

    Tony Tubbs (WBA)
    1985 - 1 title fight (Page)
    1986 - 1 title fight (Witherspoon)

    Tim Witherspoon (WBA) (second reign)
    1986 - 3 title fights (Tubbs, Bruno, Smith)

    Trevor Berbick (WBC)
    1986 - 2 title fights (Thomas and Tyson)

    Mike Tyson
    1986 - 1 title fight (Berbick)
    1987 - 4 title fights (Smith, Thomas, Tucker, Biggs)
    1988 - 3 title fights (Holmes, Tubbs, Spinks)
    1989 - 2 title fights (Bruno, Williams)
    1990 - 1 title fight (Douglas)

    Other than Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles and Larry Holmes, most of the top heavyweights, at least, in that century never really made a lot (three or more) of defenses each year.

    The great majority made 2 defenses, or 1, a year. Sometimes none.
     
    Dubblechin, Jul 31, 2023
    Dubblechin, Jul 31, 2023
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  9. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Very selective. Heavyweights only, and not to include the Joe Louis or Ezzard Charles eras, haha.

    And you can’t say ‘John Tate only had one title fight’ when he LOST the title in that one fight. He couldn’t have another unless he earned a shot.

    Marvin had his title continuously for years and only once did he exceed two fights. And look during that span how many title fights other champions had to get a fair comparison.
     
    Saintpat, Jul 31, 2023
    Saintpat, Jul 31, 2023
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  10. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Selective? I listed 35 champions. And I specifically said "Other than Louis, Charles and Holmes."

    You said it wasn't unusual to see champs defend their title three or four or MORE times a year.

    It kind of was unusual.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2023
    Dubblechin, Jul 31, 2023
    Dubblechin, Jul 31, 2023
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  11. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yes, selective.

    All heavyweights. Why not middleweights?

    And you purposely left off the ones who defended more often. And put in guys saying they only had one title fight in a year when they lost their title and couldn’t have another defense.

    Go lightweight to light heavy and see where it gets you.

    It was not unusual to see guys defend three, four or more times a year — you pick the MORE and ignore the others … to be clear, I was saying 3+ ties per year. So three or more. I didn’t say ‘it was not unusual to see guys defend five times a year,’ although that did happen … in fact, we can find more cases of five title defenses in a year than we can find Hagler defending three (much less four or five).

    Hagler in his own time was defending less frequently than other champions who held their belts (hard to defend a belt when you lose it). That seems without question. Hell, the other Fab Four guys all defended titles more frequently.
     
    Saintpat, Jul 31, 2023
    Saintpat, Jul 31, 2023
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  12. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Because I looked up heavyweights. You're the one who said it was common. You post all the other champs who were defending four or MORE times a year.

    If it was so common, there should be tons.

    I was around then (during Hagler's reign). I don't recall a laundry list of champs making five defenses a year.
     
    Dubblechin, Jul 31, 2023
    Dubblechin, Jul 31, 2023
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  13. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No, I did not say four or more times. I said THREE, four or more — look at all the champions in the 1980s who HAD TITLES TO DEFEND that many times nad you’ll see it is not uncommon for those guys to defend three, four OR more times a year (that’s three choices, ticking any of those boxes fits what I said, hence the OR).

    Larry Holmes was heavyweight champ in the 1980s and you purposely left him off BECAUSE he defended more often. That’s called skewing data.
     
    Saintpat, Jul 31, 2023
    Saintpat, Jul 31, 2023
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  14. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You said Holmes in the first post. I listed like 35 other champions to show how few defenses nearly ALL the others made.

    It was uncommon. If 3 or 4 do it and 30 or 40 don't, that's not common.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2023
    Dubblechin, Jul 31, 2023
    Dubblechin, Jul 31, 2023
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  15. Jel

    Jel Obsessive list maker Full Member

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    Tony Zale:

    1941: 3 defenses
    1942: 0 defenses
    1943: 0 defenses
    1944: 0 defenses
    1945: 0 defenses
    1946: 1 defense

    What possible explanation could Zale have for this shocking level of inactivity?

    Honestly, that’s some Gary Russell Jr-level bull****…
     
    Jel, Jul 31, 2023
    Jel, Jul 31, 2023
    #15
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