Any basis for George Foreman's power being overrated?

Okay, thanks.

 

I’m not saying Earnie wasn’t the hardest from that era, he probably was (certainly from a one-punch pop artist angle) but as he lost most of the big fights he fought, he’ll get more credit, that’s how fighters work. Henry Clark didn’t think he was the hardest puncher, of course, he didn’t, Shavers beat him. Tillis said Tyson hit harder…then decided to revert to type and go down the old “oh he beat me, he hit like a girl” route, meanwhile, the other guy, the one I defeated, “hit much much harder”. So there’s two exceptions.

You think Holmes would say Earnie was the biggest puncher had he knocked him out and Larry had beaten Tyson? No chance. So if/when Wilder loses a further, say, three fights, he will be even more highly rated for his power.

 

I can say one thing DWC - immediately after his fight with Earnie, James Tillis made a point of saying that Ali had already told him, beforehand, that Shavers was the hardest puncher he (Ali) had ever faced. so naturally after the fight, Tillis could then say he fought the hardest puncher ever, not only surviving same but going on to win the fight.

 

It isn't overated ,imo.

 

Loads of guys Shavers beat also labelled him the hardest puncher they ever faced. A great many of them.

 

He asked for exceptions- he got two.

 

You're right, my apologies i should have quoted your earlier post -

"Shavers is the popular choice due to endorsements by other fighters…generally any ones that beat him."

"Generally", rather debatable. Jimmy Young, Norton, Ellis, Caldwell etc etc etc.

So i think your post is somewhat blurry. Shavers is the exception not the rule when it comes to guys knee jerk naming people they conquered. His victims not only had no problem naming him but many actually waxed lyrical about his power.

Jimmy Young - "Oooh man, that man is always with me. He hit so hard, the hardest. I still feel his punches today."

Ken Norton - "Shavers. No question. At least with Foreman I was able to get up. When Shavers hit me I went down and stayed down."

Here's Caldwell who fought Shavers -

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Given so many Shavers victims not only named him but invented all sorts of superlatives i think it's safe to say he was the absolute standout of his era power wise. That's stating it mildly. He was obviously absurdly powerful. When you have all common opponents (as far as i know) of he and Foreman categorically naming Shavers you are talking something very special.

 

No need for the apology mate, I figured you meant that and it was a bit harsh by me. I think my comment has come to light recently when my lad pointed it out and i confirmed that yes Shavers lost most of his big fights and in virtually all of them, his opponents took his best and still beat him- some flattened him too. I have stated i still think he's the hardest puncher of that era, but his 'w' column isn't strong enough for me to be the all-time #1.

The examples you use above are generally comparing Earnie vs George and there's no doubt Shavers comes out on top in that debate. But if a fighter is asked in general who's the hardest puncher with no apparent subject matter, than the answer if often/usually different.

Also, the Young quote seems doctored (not by you) I think "the hardest" has been added. Well, at least it never used to say that, it was a "ooog he hit so hard" once upon a time. Jimmy also claimed that "all Shavers did was bloody my nose and they stopped it" (or words to that effect). Obviously Jimmy became a much more seasoned pro and after and comfortably outskilled Shavers in the rematch but, of course, was shafted as he usually was- and a draw was the verdict.

Based on these chats- and triggered by Journeyman's p*sstake thread about it the the other week (which was spot on)- I asked Andy Holligan about this two weeks ago- no subject matter was at hand, no "Was Chavez the hardest puncher?" type question, just a plain old "who was it?" His answer a guy called "Glyn Rhodes", to which I laughed and said "of course it was, you won", to which he laughed and said "Isn't it always". So I asked him "Chavez or Shea Neary". he said "Neary", but if I put this bit on youtube people would think he thought Neary was the hardest he'd been hit- which wouldn't be true.

 

Cheers mate!!!

Just one thing, some examples are The Acorn vs George but every one of these guys chose Shavers as the hardest they ever faced including the guys that they beat. Last time i studied it every common opponent chose Shavers and i'm sure every one of these and more push Earnie to the forefront. Christ he must have hit hard.

Where he struggled was in finishing. He gassed quick and was wide and clumsy in his follow ups so if he didn't one punch a guy, or the guy had class and a bit of durability he was struggling. The flaws were never more evident than vs Holmes where Holmes was absolutely out on his feet and Ernie's follow up attempts were beyond clumsy. So much difference comparative to a guy like Tyson of Louis.

Of course history is littered with humongous punchers who couldn't make their power overly pay.

 

Even 70's Foreman realized this and would sometimes not even try to get his full weight into a shot because most opponents were able to brace for it, roll with it, block or evade because he didn't have a lot of handspeed. So he would sometimes throw pitter patter punches on purpose until he saw an opening. He knew guys were wary of his wrecking ball like shots that had an abnormally high amount of force behind them and adjusted accordingly. If most people are faster than you and you throw a huge telegraphed shot from the start, even an average opponent will get the timing down and neutralize your power defensively because they've seen everything you can do already.

I remember my coach telling me that sometimes it's actually better to not immediately go for the KO even if you have the guy hurt in the 1st round. Some punchers get ahead of themselves swinging away with full force and that can drain you rapidly even if the shots are landing. There's certainly an art to finishing an opponent off and that's entirely separate from raw power. Foreman was a demolition artist and could patiently attack the foundation of a building before bringing it down so to speak. He combined heavy bombing with attrition punching at times.

 

I think sometimes Shavers power could be overrated and his skills underrated.

Shavers wasn't a very good boxer, but he was great at setting up the bomb (shifting his weight, timing, getting good leverage, aiming for the jaw, etc). He was one of the best ever when it came to delivering raw power to the target. At the same time, his lack of stamina and finishing ability weren't that great and he could blow his load trying to finish the opponent or get his self knocked out instead of the opponent survived.

As for the power itself, it is strange that many people managed to survive and then beat Shavers regardless of the aforementioned lack of finishing ability and stamina. Shavers was a bit of a "glass cannon" in that sense.

 

Fighters do tend to do this, but only sometimes, & some who Shavers beat.
I heard about Tillis, he also made some vicious homophobic comments about Tyson-but not to his face.

Also it is well recognized that guys who are beaten for a while tend to recall that better than a harder puncher who KOs them & they legitimately absorbed less punishment & may not recall events around the KO as well too.

I did not hear about Henry Clark picking anyone besides Shavers, please provide any link to that!
There is a big chance that Holmes like Ali & many who beat Shavers would be honest & not let ego get in the way of saying or understanding The Truth.

 

I always chuckle at people on the internet saying, ‘I don’t care what the guy who actually got hit by these guys in the ring say, I know who was really the harder puncher.’

Unreal.

And being the hardest puncher =/= being the best fighter — because a guy punches harder doesn’t mean he’s the one who’s always going to place and time that shot to get the KO. Some guys aren’t as good at finishing as others (Shavers fits this to me) or don’t have the skill to set up the ‘kill shot.’ Doesn’t mean he’s not a harder puncher than a guy who did knock someone out. The one you don’t see is often the finisher, and a slower guy like Earnie or George aren’t going to land the ‘sneaky’ punch that ends it sometimes.

For instance three accomplished world champions — Roy Jones Jr, James Toney and Frankie Liles — ALL rated Merqui Sosa as the hardest puncher that they faced. All beat him. Does that mean they are all liars? Did they get together and make it up or all happen to pick Merqui’s name out of a hat? That’s ludicrous. If those three guys who all faced him say Sosa was the hardest puncher they faced (Toney did add the caveat that Sam Peters being a heavyweight was more powerful), why would anyone assume they’re lying?

There’s also the matter of the fighter assessing who hit hardest that he faced taking into account what version of themselves took that punch. Larry Holmes said Earnie Shavers knocked him out cold, and that hitting the canvas woke him back up. That’s Larry at his physical peak being hit by Shavers. Tyson stopped a version of Larry who was coming off a layoff and wasn’t in great shape … a guy who had a short training camp and wasn’t near his best. Conditioning, any trainer will tell you, plays a major part in recovery. And Larry had no legs at that point (compared to when he fought Shavers for sure). The Holmes of Shavers may have gone down vs. Tyson but may have also gotten up and used his legs and guile to survive the round. Only he knows which guy hit him harder and he says it was Ernie … but of course Tyson fans know from watching YouTube what ‘the truth really is,’ lol.

 

Foreman fought an incredible number of stiffs on his way up...He beat George Chuvalo and Gregoria Peralta...the 2 most notable wins before the Frazier fight in 1973. The he beats a shopworn Frazier....Joe "King" Roman...and they KO's "chinny" Ken Norton! He loses to a past his prime Ali in 1974...and then in 1977 he outsmarted...decked...and loses to the light hitting Jimmy Young...

 

Crazy how none of those other guys could get so much as a flash knockdown vs. ‘shopworn Frazier,’ but Foreman pounced him off the canvas like dribbling a basketball.