Best heavyweight Jim Jeffries could beat?

I think there's enough proof that Jeffries was injured during the Sharkey fights, and there's also a highly likelihood that Fitzsimmons had plaster of paris on his gloves during that fight. Regardless, I don't think that one poor performance against Fitzsimmons affects Jeffries' chances in a fight against Louis, it's not like Fitzsimmons didn't lick every other heavyweight out there during that period. Besides, Louis himself had competitive fights against opponents he significantly outweighed (Conn), and Jeffries had other performances in which he displayed much better technical prowess according to reports (Corbett 2, Fitzsimmons 1)

As troubling as Louis' precision is for Jeff, we also need to acknowledge weaknesses that Jeffries could exploit from Louis. Joe has noticeably struggled against crouching fighters (Godoy) with good left hooks (Galento), and could be crowded and outfought on the inside (Conn). If Jeffries used his physical advantages, which he seemed pretty inconsistent in doing, I think a matchup against Louis goes surprisingly well for him. Maybe even a 50\50 fight.

However, you also raise good points about how Jeffries never fought a combo puncher like Louis, nor a puncher the size of Louis. That being said, the thread is about the best fighters Jeffries COULD beat, and I think his odds against Langford and Louis would be much higher than, say, Ali or Lennox Lewis. Peak Jeffries chances against Louis and Langford is near 50% IMO

 

Another way to look at this, would be is there a heavyweight that we could rule out the possibility of Jeffries beating?

In my opinion there is not.

 

Jeffries would not have a prayer against Ali,Holmes,Lewis , imo.
Champs that beat Jeffries include;
Johnson,Dempsey,Louis,Liston,Ali,Holmes ,Foreman,Lewis,Holyfield,Tyson.imo

 

I think Butterbean beats Jeff.
I think Ron Stander beats Jeff.
I think Marvis Frazier beats Jeff.

Jeff beats anyone before him.
In his prime, maybe he beats Johnson. I doubt it though.

Literally no heavyweight worth watching would lose to Jeff.

He is woefully overrated.

 

Jeffries might (could (non-remote possibly)) beat anyone if they came along in his day and met him in a long-rounds/finish encounter.

Time machine Jeffries cold into later fighters times, I probably wouldn't bet him to be 50/50 against his great successors, and that's no diss to Jeffries.
Time machine Jeffries into 1882, I'd favor him against John L. Not so sure, though, if Jeffries were born into Sullivan's day.

Against his temperol neighbor ATG, Johnson, it's pretty dark to me. (Used to favor Jeffries).

 

I don't have room to write all the heavyweights who are a sure thing to pummel Jeffries.

 

Others guys that whip Jeffries...

Ibragimov (both), Chagaev, Dokes, Zolkin, Tubbs, Tua, Jefferson, Whyte, Sanders (both)... pretty much any ranked heavy I can think of from the past 30 years.

 

@mcvey

'What was wrong with Jeffries in the first Sharkey fight?'

Adam Pollack's book p. 124 (prior to Jeffries-Sharkey I)

"One issue being discussed as a potential hinderance to Jeff's career was the fact that he has hand problems. 'In the fight with Ruhlin . . . Jeffries broke his right hand early in the encounter. The weapon is still weak . . . The left hand has also been broken by being struck over the back of the member by a club . . . Jeffries is in the position of a great race horse with bad legs.' Sharkey's manager said that Jeff's hands were weak, and that a punch on Tom's skull would not hurt Tom, but hurt Jeff's hands."

pp. 133-134 (after Jeffries-Sharkey I)

"After the fight, Jeff's thumbs were in poor condition, badly swollen and discolored. Jeffries said that during the fight, his hands caused him a great deal of pain, and as a result, he was unable to hit with much force, for every blow caused a twinge of pain to shoot through his arm, causing him to flinch. That was his explanation for why he did not punch even harder or try to finish Tom off. 'I would have put Sharkey out if it were not that my hands were in such poor condition. During the fight I hurt them by hitting Sharkey on the head.
"Jeff said that his hands were not well even going into the bout. ''If my thumbs had not been injured I would have whipped him in nine or ten rounds. My thumbs have been in bad condition ever since I boxed with Van Buskirk.' Jeffries had fought several times in the past year and had not had sufficient time to heal his hands. 'I am going to rest until my hands get in shape again, as I can't hit with them.' One writer confirmed that Jeff's hands were a bit swollen before the fight started.

'Jeffries examined Fitz's wraps in the ring,plaster of paris is proven not to work.
Fitz had chronically bad hands he used to ask the other corner for permission to wear extra gauze.'

A lot of fighters have used plaster of paris, like Luis Resto and Margarito judging from the evidence. Jeffries claimed that Fitzsimmons used plasters on his weakened hands with his consent, not knowing what effects it would have.

'One bad performance? How about the first Corbett fight when he was behind on points going in to the 23 rd?'

Got me there. However, it wasn't like Jeffries didn't avenge that loss in dominant fashion. Given his approach to the fight, AKA the goal to outbox Corbett, it seems like what ended up happening in the fight was a given. The second Corbett fight, which specifies that Jeffries outboxed Corbett, is proof of how much Jeffries changed between 1900 and 1903. Here are some quotes I found from janitor, who I believe is quoting Adam Pollack's book, on a different thread:

Jeffries showed wonderful improvement. He fought better and faster than he did when he fought Bob Fitzsimmons in this city. Jeffries showed grand science and great hitting power. I was not prepared to see Jeffries outbox Corbett. He lost none of his overpowering strength by taking on the newly acquired cleverness and every blow told.”

Ed Graney (referee).

“He is so big and strong that one must conclude that it is impossible to find a man who can take his measure. Before last nights encounter I thought that a clever strong man could beat him, but when he stepped into the ring and showed as much science as Corbett I was forced to take my hat off to him.”

Tommy Ryan

“His clumsy leads were absent; his awkward efforts to set himself after missing were a thing of the past. In the year since he beat Bob Fitzsimmons down and out he has added wonderful science to his enormous bulk and unbeatable strength. He could have acquired his knowledge in but one way-from Bob Fitzsimmons, with who he toured the country and boxed almost nightly.”

National Police Gazette

“Jeffries surprised me. I am certain that he was not that quick when he fought Fitzsimmons. His footwork has improved and his hitting is cleaner. He did not employ the crouch as he did in our previous contest. He is just as strong as he ever was, much cleverer, and in the ring tonight his speed was a revelation. It was my ill fortune to meet him at his best and I have paid the penalty.”

Jim Corbett

'The best heavyweight as we now understand the term that Jeffries beat whilst champ was 199lbs Ruhlin who had been half killed by Fitz.'

Unfair to suggest that Ruhlin wasn't still formidable by the time he fought Jeffries though, even if he had lost to Fitzsimmons. He was still the best modern heavyweight sized fighter out there when they fought.

'Thirty nine years old Fitz had to wait two years for his chance after defeating the two top challengers Ruhlin and Sharkey in the space of two weeks.What physical advantages would Jeffries have over Louis aside from about ten /15pounds in weight,and half inch in reach ?'

Vastly superior strength, stamina and endurance. Jeffries was inconsistent when it came to actually using these advantages.

 

For every bad performance Jeffries had an excuse ,bad hands for both Sharkey fights ,drugged tea when he fought Johnson.
Sharkey broke a finger in the 2nd Jeffries fight and partially dislocated his arm,he also fought several rounds with broken ribs yet Jeffries couldn't put him out.

When Corbett rematched Jeffries Corbett had been retired for 3 years!
Hardly surprising Jeffries improved on his previous showing.

Resto didn't have plaster of paris in his gloves,his trainer Panama Lewis took out half the padding in them .

Jeffries carefully examined Fitz's hand wraps and that's in Pollack's book too!
I repeat plaster of paris on hand wraps does not work.Sports Illustrated experimented with it ,they wrapped Cleveland Williams hand with bandages dusted them with plaster of paris allowed enough time for it to set ,then had him hit the heavy bag,the plaster disintegrated harmlessly.Whatever Margarito had in his gloves it wasn't that.
Reports of the second Jeffries v Fitz fight stated Fitz hit Jeffries at will,whenever and wherever he wanted to.Even if Fitz wraps had been loaded, that would not account for how easily a 2 years retired 39years old man , 47 lbs lighter, dominated the first 7 rounds.
Jeffries was fortunate to be around when he was the biggest guy on the block.He would be a small heavy today.
Fitz,Choynski,Griffin,Finnegan.Corbett,Sharkey all conceded lumps of weight to him ,and Corbett and Fitz years too.

 

They aren't excuses if there's proof behind it. Jeffries was injured during those Sharkey fights, as the evidence shows.

Corbett was hardly active before their first encounter and still outboxed Jeffires, so I disagree with the notion that Jeffries outboxed Corbett solely due to the inactivity. It just seems like Jeffries improved that much, and everyone around him believed so as well.

Once again, Jeffries knew Fitzsimmons was using plasters. He even consented to their usage, so I'm not sure what Jeffries inspecting them has to do with anything:

'Fitzsimmons had insisted on such protection for his hands because of their fragility. He said, All I want is a little bit of sticking plaster on my hand where it was hurt before. Jeffries responded, I have no objection to that. It will be subject to the inspection of the referee, of course. National Police Gazette, June 14, 21, 1902, August 9, 1902.
The following year, when negotiating the terms of a fight with Corbett, Jeffries did not want to allow Corbett to wear hand bandages, saying that they made the hands like plaster of Paris. Jeff said, When I fought Fitz last time, he wore bandages which were like a plaster cast. Ordinarily my skin is not easy to open, but when Fitz let go those plaster casts they simply cut me open. The bandages were so hard they even hurt Fitz's hands. When Corbett said that Jeff could have a representative observe the wrapping process, Bill Delaney responded, That's all right, Jim; but you may accidentally slip your hand in a bucket of plaster of paris while meandering from your dressing room to the ring. Even as early as 1905, the Police Gazette wrote, It is said that Fitz used to put moistened plaster of Paris on his linen bandages and let the mass grow hard. Then he would have a rocky ridge across his hand that could be felt straight through the glove. Philadelphia Public Ledger, Press, Inquirer, March 2, 1903; National Police Gazette, March 21, 28, 1903, Police Gazette, July 15, 1905.'


Margarito had traces of calcium and sulfur on his hands, which combined with oxygen makes plaster of paris. You're right that Resto removed padding, but he also used plasters:

https://nypost.com/2008/04/04/resto-irish-was-plastered/

 

He beats Marciano, maybe... not sure though, would bet on Rocky tbf.

 

Jeffries’ perceived improvement vs Corbett ignores Corbett’s own age related deteriorations - and the negative impacts of inactivity with each advancing year becomes more acute - it was 3+ years between the first fight and the rematch - and Corbett was virtually 36 yo when they tangled for the last time.

Jeff vs Fitz 2 doesn’t read at all as if Jeffries improved. He copped a shellacking from inactive, old man Fitz before the KO - it was like Fitz couldn’t miss the Boilermaker if he tried.

Quite simply, youth and size advantage was ultimately served - I believe Jeffries said as much after the fight - unless he said after his first match with Fitz.

It seems Jeffries does have a lot of excuses for this, that and the other fight.

Even if those excuses were legit, that’s the Jeffries we’re dealing with, injuries are part and parcel of the game and the perceived durability of a boxer - and several of his opponents had their tales of woe also and anyway.

I recall the claim that Jeff injured himself at least once when innocently conditioning himself (not sparring) - tbh, it read as if he was a bit clumsy.

As to Marciano vs Jeff. One could draw vague parallels to Jeff’s 45 rounds vs Tom Sharkey.

I say vague because Marciano was so much better and more durable than Sailor Tom. I think Rocky mauls and stops Big Jeff somewhere around the 10th round mark. A brutal beat down.

 

Jeffries definitely did improve between the second Fitz fight and second Corbett fight, and this change was acknowledged by the most significant figures in boxing during this period. Including Corbett himself.

And this improvement makes sense, considering Fitzsimmons began to help Jeffries train after their second fight