Rating Ali's first win over Liston

What's so funny?

 

That is a virtuoso performance. Liston seemed slow there, but Clay was great that night.

The ring is mic'd up well. You can hear Alis punches thump.

 

Bone displacement or bone spacing that can imply or indicate muscle, tendon damage etc.

 

Good point. The audio pick up was excellent for the fight, particularly for the time.

When Steve Ellis noted that Liston dug a heavy shot under the heart - you heard that one loud and clear also.

Though past his best Sonny was still a very dangerous man in the ring and, after the fight, Dundee said that Ali’s bruised flank bore the evidence of Liston’s powerful body punches.

 

He claimed bursitis, which cannot be diagnosed by an X-ray.

No wonder they laughed.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...maging tests.,other causes of your discomfort.

 

Bring me a source where "he" claimed anything.

 

Bursitis was the pre-existing condition, Liston actually claimed an injured shoulder, incurred during the course of the fight.

They laughed because they were a bunch of know all, know nothing hacks, many of whom, if not all, got the fight prediction entirely wrong - their mis forecasts clearly apparent well before Liston surrendered.

Many run with Holmes taking in an injured left arm into the Norton fight. I believe even Holmes’ trainers more or less said that the injury had adequately healed come fight time - and the exclusive frequency with which Larry pumped the jab in that fight belied claims that Larry’s left arm was impaired.

What’s up with that then, eh?

 

1) Even if an injury is ‘adequately healed come fight time,’ it would obviously impair someone in preparation and training.

2) What an injury allows and doesn’t allow one to do is up to the severity and placement of said injury. Surely you’ve been injured before and could do one thing but not another, right? I had a bad knee situation once that made it very difficult for me to go down stairs but, for whatever reason, not up them.

3) I think Sonny predicted he’d win the fight too, lol. Being a sports writer, even a great one, doesn’t give someone a crystal ball. They’re journalists, not prognosticators. If they could see the outcome of events they’d all be living in Las Vegas as millionaires.

4) There’s a big difference between quitting and offering up an excuse (Sonny) and WINNING and then talking about something that impacted performance. Larry didn’t quit.

5) Go back and look at the sixth round. You’d have an easier time convincing me Sonny injured his right shoulder (he claimed left; maybe he got confused) — he throws almost exclusively left hands in the fought, a lot of jabs and several hooks (including his best punch of the round).

Sonny may not have been 100%, especially after Ali unleashed all those combinations that surely had his head swimming, but he danged sure could have got off his stool and continued. He could throw both hands in the round before and he could have continued to do so in the seventh. Problem was, he was taking a beating.

 

Writers attempt to prognosticate - and many do so with mucho conviction, as they did re Liston v Ali 1, and their predictions couldn’t have been more wrong - and Liston wasn’t the only factor in how the fight played out - many grossly underestimated Ali but there were a few who gave Ali a better chance than the mainstream.

Sports writers have long been known to scramble and save face after the fact - to rationalise the obvious errs in their judgment.

Even for the rematch, Liston was somehow installed as the favourite despite the comprehensive victory achieved in the first fight.

How smart were the journos? Well, either they had no clue or apparently understood that the X - Rays contained evidence of an injury - otherwise, why suggest that the X Rays even belonged to someone else instead of dismissing the X Rays altogether?

Agreed, an earlier injury can impede preparation BUT, the pivotal claim was that Larry took a compromising injury into the fight - visual evidence otherwise doesn’t suggest that was the case - and Larry’s form, and jab in particular didn’t reflect an inadequately prepared fighter - injury aside, Liston did not appear adequately trained/prepared for Ali either - and his weight of 218 lbs supports that perception let alone his performance in the ring.

Sure, I have a ****ed right elbow atm. I can still curl a very heavy dumbbell but there are other far less strenuous actions that cause a feeling akin to an electric shock in that same arm. It’s a fact but my formally proving the existence of that injury and how it restricts me is another thing again.

The first port of call is establishing if there was an injury - that is obviously a big bone of contention.

I don’t think that Liston’s actual proof of an injury was any less than many other fighters have proffered - and, in fact, it amounted to more than what a lot of other fighters have offered.

Also, Liston’s pre-existing bursitis, making him more prone to an eventual injury, would’ve logically impaired his own preparations also.

Liston had a better case to argue for an injury taken in or during the fight than Larry did.

So then, otherwise, the focus might be - why believe Holmes any more than Liston?

Larry himself has made other claims that don’t add up when considering other reference points.

Holmsey claims aren’t immune to the same treatment being applied to Liston or, conversely, Sonny should be the beneficiary of the same concessions being afforded to Holmes and his claim.

 

Larry didn’t make any excuses. He beat Norton and won the title. He told what he went through, but he didn’t quit.

Sonny quit. After a round when he threw left hands almost to the exclusion of his right (four right hands, I’d guess 20-25 lefts, including jabs and hooks). But also a round where Ali was tagging him solidly and shook him at least once. Boy, that will aggravate a shoulder injury more than anything, haha.

So I don’t see any comparison other than Holmes showed how true the old saying is: Winners adjust; losers make excuses. Sonny was making excuses. Nobody wanted to hear it.

Yet he got a rematch and … wow, he really showed how he was a hampered fighter the previous time around, huh.

Oh wait, Liston got in the best shape of his fight … but the fight was postponed for a few months (just as had one of the Patterson fights, btw) and he went out and got drunk and never visited a gym again, showing up in Lewiston with a syringe hanging out of his arm from his latest heroin shot … or something like that.

Sonny’s always got people making excuses for him. It’s embarrassing the gymnastics people will go through to not accept that he just got his ass kicked by a better fighter.

 

Why did Larry bother to say what he went through? Extra credit for his performance and an excuse as to why old, past prime Ken ran him so close.

Winning or losing, there is always an angle that can give rise to possible BS claims.

And there is no good evidence aside from Larry’s word to suggest that he overcame any inherent issues significant enough to cause him to quit.

But we believe Larry straight up without asking the same due, critical questions?

Tyson sparked Larry for the KO - Shavers didn’t but Larry said Earnie hit harder? And Larry also said he could’ve arisen after the final KD vs Mike - who’s buying that?

Larry said that every defence after Norton was a like a cakewalk in comparison - a direct compliment to Norton - no mention of any impairing injury in the same breath.

Liston was swinging good with the left for a time - and missing, so fair to entertain that it might’ve lent to his claimed injury.

On the score of “referred” injuries, in testament to Earnie’s power, Tex Cobb said that when Shavers hit him on the chin it broke his ankle.

That’s a lot further down than from Sonny’s chin to his linoleum plated shoulder.

 

Close but Liston (or rather his camp) said the injury was made much worse during the course of the fight, but was actually injured in training. According to witnesses, he was in pain when striking the heavy bag and resorted to ultrasound therapy and icing after each training session.

 

It was a surgical win, Muhammad Ali's reflexes, speed, movement, and timing spelled the difference in Ali's huge upset over the invincable Sonny Liston on Feb 25 1964.

 

How is it Ali's most underrated win when it's ranked among his best wins? His most underrated win imo was against Williams. Unfairly dismissed on the basis of Williams condition. Solid contenders like Chuvalo and future number 1 ranked (even if that ranking was absolute bogus) Foster struggled a lot more with an even more faded Williams than Ali did, were both rocked (Foster suffered a busted ear drum in the first bout, and was on the losing end of a slug fest in the rematch before ending matters), did not remotely dominate Williams like Ali did, and despite being harder punchers than Ali, Foster took far longer to dispatch Williams, and didn't look nearly as impressive in doing so, while Chuvalo was forced to go the distance and take a hard fought UD.

 

Chuvalo vs Williams, Nov 17 1971, undercard of Ali vs Mathis.