Where do you rank FOTC Joe Frazier at heavyweight?

I think "shooting star" is discounting Joe's great years preceding the FOTC, years in which he annihilated peak Quarry, Ellis and Foster in succession.

 

Highly but Liston, Lewis, Ali prime, Foreman, Tyson, still beat him IMO.

 

He’d be about where I have him right now, seventh.

Because people can speculate all they want to about which opponent FOTC Frazier could beat … but part of that unique moment in time was the personal animosity he held toward the man standing across the ring from him that night. Which would be missing in any of those other matchups.

 

Bingo. I think he does beat everyone else, Joe Louis could be trouble though.

 

The Frazier of that night would have a chance against any fighter, anytime, anywhere.

 

I think Frazier was a brilliant fighter who beat some good fighters without even considering that he possesses perhaps the greatest win of them all. Unequivocally one of the great champions.

However his resume is totally devoid of punchers. Tyson, Holyfield, Holmes, Lewis, Ali all have resumes stacked with top punchers. Foreman has a few himself.

I’m not really interested in hearing excuses for why Frazier didn’t fight punchers. Ali was beating the punchers and the guys who beat the punchers. Frazier seems excused for not facing punchers because he beat the guy who beat them.

The uncompetitive blowouts against Foreman are a bad look. The two hapless fighters for defenses after Ali are a bad look. Questions raised about Frazier having careful management are also a bad look.

Any fighter benefiting off careful management certainly fall down in my estimation. I likewise have issues with Foreman’s ‘protected’ route to the top. The greatest fighters imo should be competitive with anyone regardless of styles.

My other issue is I wasn’t impressed by his performance in the second Ali fight. Frazier looked out of shape and should’ve been more competitive for a big legacy fight.

 

Top 10 for me

 

Sure. I was trying to get differentiate him from being a one-hit wonder. He was on a tear from 67-71, but then fell off the cliff. Not a long peak but fitting to his style and facilitated by his increasing fondness for night life.

 

That was an incredibly dangerous fighter. He had a great rhythm with his bobbing/weaving to produce great offense and defense. Great body shots, sharp combinations, good counters and non stop pressure.

The biggest issue when it comes to h2h is that inside fighting is pretty much an extinct species at this point at HW. In the past 20 years, Joshua and Ruiz might be the only guys who could hold their own against Frazier on the inside and I'd favor the FOTC version to beat both of them. Smoking Joe firing on all cylinders is a top 10 h2h fighter across several eras with a strict ref who penalizes excessive clinching. Unless you can blast him out early, he's going to be all over you like flies on crap. And I don't see too many guys being able to stop him early, he was in such amazing condition with great stamina and enough heart for an entire gym.

 

Prime Joe Louis would be trouble for anyone. I think Joe gets underrated on this forum. He is still top two or three for my money.

 

Definitely Top 10.