Mount Rushmore of HW punchers

I pretty much agree with this overall, but saying that Foreman stopping Frazier twice not being such a big deal because Frazier was knocked down 11 times when in fact Forman was responsible for eight of those knock downs isn't a great argument.

 

Wilder did fight bigger opponents on average, but many of them were terrible. You can't only focus on size while failing to mention Wilder had plenty of pretty easy opponents. It took him years before he stepped up and fought ranked opponents such as Stiverne, Ortiz, Fury, etc.

You keep going on and on about how very few people went the distance with Wilder as if Wilder has been KOing elite ranked heavyweights. He hasn't. We both just agreed Wilder needs to fight more ranked opponents to give his power more credibility.

Patterson was smaller, yet, but he was also a 2x champion and gold medalist when Liston beat him for the title. Far better credentials than Stiverne who beat caveman Arreola for a vacant belt.

Frazier weighed about the same as Foreman when Foreman bounced him off the canvas 6x. Frazier was an undisputed champion who had cleared out his division (wiping out Ellis, Quarry, Mathis, Ali, etc) BEFORE he fought Foreman and was favored to win. When exactly did Wilder beat an opponent with elite credentials who was favored to beat Wilder?

Foreman and Liston both stopped numerous opponents who were close to them in height and weight. Look at the numbers, they didn't only fight guys 20 lbs lighter than them. And again, the quality of the opponent is important too. I don't care if Wilder KOd a guy 30 lbs heavier or 60 lbs heavier if the opponent is a bum.

 

You can't base your ranking in whom they didn't stop. Or, at least, without taking into consideration other factors like did he land clean punches on their chin? Haye and Williams were super cautious and defensive against Wlad, against Jennings Wlad looked old and unable to land clean punches as well. Yes, he was landing cleanly against Puritty and Wach, but both had proven granite chins - Puritty never went down against Morrison, Sanders, Rahman, Vitali, Gonzalez, Grant and other big punchers. Wach was never knocked down until he turned 42 and even then he was down against murderous punching Makhmudov.

You can make the same arguments against almost any heavyweight. Lennox Lewis, for example. Couldn't stop or drop Ocasio, who was KO'ed by Holmes, Holyfield and Dokes, couldn't stop or drop Levi Billups, who had 10 KO losses including 51-seconds demolition from cruiserweight Orlin Norris, couldn't stop or drop skinny 30 lbs lighter Zeljko Mavrovich, who had two KO1 losses in the amateurs, couldn't stop or drop Holyfield who was KO'ed by Bowe and Toney, couldn't drop Tua who was dropped by Barrett, couldn't KO Tucker who was KO'ed by Hide and Ruiz etc.

Or Foreman: couldn't stop or drop Morrison, who was KO'ed in 1 by Michael Bentt, couldn't stop or drop Grimsley, who wad KO'ed by Thunder literally in two seconds in his very next fight.

Also, KO% should be considered as one of the factors, but definitely not the most important one. For example, I think that Robert Helenius (21 KOs in 32 wins) hits much, much harder than Chris Arreola (34 KOs in 39 wins). Helenius has much more brutal knockouts in his career, plus you can compare effectiveness of their power against Adam Kownacki - the Pole took Arreola's best punches without visible troubles, while Helenius hurt him with about every single punch he landed.

Saying all that, I think Wilder is the hardest puncher in history of HW division, yes.

 

Goes to show how much people on here are extremely biased or heavily persuaded by nostalgia. The fact Wladimir only has 17% of votes is laughable. He’s absolutely in the top 4 all time. Manny Steward would know.

But Marciano and Louis… I am surprised they aren’t on here. Especially Rocky.

Wladimir, Foreman, Shavers and Marciano would be my Rushmore of punchers

 

That's a good list. No major arguments, a tweak here and there.

 

Was it more impressive that Jack Dempsey knocked out Hall of Famer Georges Carpentier or that he knocked out Jess Willard?

It was more impressive he knocked out Willard - even though Carpentier is rated higher on every pound-for-pound list in history - because Willard was 50+ pounds bigger.

We're talking about PUNCHING POWER. That's what we're talking about. Not rating who should rank higher all-time.

Floyd Patterson was arguably the smallest heavyweight champions of the last century. He was floored 20+ times in his career by other (compared to today) SMALL fighters.

The only guy Wilder hasn't stopped in his career is the biggest World Heavyweight Champion in history who outweighed Wilder by 40+ pounds every time they fought.

If we're talking power, THAT MATTERS.

It also matters that regardless of how you feel about Wilder's competition, every puncher on that list LOST or FAILED to stop or BOTH ... fighters far worse than the ONLY guy Wilder didn't stop and lost to.

They DID NOT stop all the bad fighters they faced. They didn't even BEAT all the bad fighters they faced.

Sonny Liston got his jaw broke and lost to basically a light heavyweight journeyman Marty Marshall. Wlad got stopped by longtime journeyman Ross Puritty. Never beat him. Shavers lost to one journeyman after another and didn't stop them. Mike Tyson got stopped by Danny Williams and Kevin McBride (and Buster Douglas ... who wasn't that hard to stop. Mike "the Giant" White stopped Buster. Lou Savarese stopped him.) George couldn't stop Tommy Morrison ... Tommy Morrison. Or Lou Savarese. Or Crawford Grimsley. Or Alex Stewart. (I know George was older then, but those guys weren't Iron men.)

Wilder STOPPED all the bad fighters, all the good fighters, all the former or reigning champs, all the contenders he fought ... except Tyson Fury.

If we're rating power punchers ... which we are ... George Foreman not stopping Levi Forte is a check against him. George Foreman not stopping Crawford Grimsley is a check against him. George Foreman not stopping Alex Stewart is a check against him. George Foreman not stopping Roberto Davila is a check against him. George Foreman not stopping Bigfoot Martin is a check against him. Lesser fighters, lesser punchers had no problem stopping them. George Foreman going the distance with light heavyweight Peralta and then needing another 10 rounds to stop him in the rematch is a check against George. Mauro Mino wasted Peralta.

If we're rating power punchers ... which we are ... Earnie Shavers not stopping or even beating Ron Stander is a check against him. Stander was a punching bag. Earnie Shavers not stopping or even beating Bob Stallings is a check against him. Earnie Shavers not stopping not stopping or even beating Walter Santemore or Quick Tilllis is a check against him. Tillis was stopped 11 times. Earnie Shavers not stopping Vicente Rondon (a light heavyweight) is a check against him. Bob Foster and Bennie Briscoe stopped Rondon.

The only guy Wilder hasn't stopped is Fury, who no one has stopped or scored a win over, who is a world champion and outweighed Wilder by 40 pounds every time.

You clearly aren't giving Wilder enough credit for KOing all these huge guys. And everyone Wilder fought as WBC champ was ranked by the WBC. ALL of them. Screw this Ring ratings crap. A lot of bad fighters were ranked by Ring over the years.

You can badmouth people like Breazeale, Wilder's WBC mandatory, but he was a freaking 6'5, 250-pound Olympian who had only lost to Joshua. And Wilder gave up 40 pounds to him and still wasted him in one.

He didn't go the distance with him or lose to him, like Earnie did with 5'10" Bob Stallings or get his jaw broken and lose like Liston did against 180-pound Marty Marshall.

 

If we're rating the best punchers in history, of course you can.

The best puncher ever should be able to stop basically everyone. That's a given.

So who didn't they stop and why didn't they stop them should be question #1.

 

I'm not saying George Foreman stopping Joe Frazier wasn't a big deal. I love George Foreman. I love Joe Frazier. I said it was difficult to argue against all these guys because I like them all.

But Joe Frazier was one of the smallest heavyweight champs of the last 70+ years. He was floored by Mike Bruce. He was floored a couple times by Bonavena. Manuel Ramos had him stepping in postholes during the first round of their fight.

George Foreman didn't give up 40 pounds and several inches in height to Joe Frazier and knock him down eight times. He knocked out one of the smallest heavyweight champs to win the title the first time, and George knocked out only the second LIGHT heavyweight champ to win a heavyweight title to win his second heavyweight title.

I would expect everyone on that list to be able to KNOCK OUT Joe Frazier and Michael Moorer. If you're one of the hardest punchers ever, you SHOULD be able to.

Joe Frazier wasn't that difficult to hit. He liked to take punches to give them.

Hell, David Tua's in last place on that list above at the moment, and he knocked out Moorer in like 30 seconds. Joe Frazier would have a terrible night against Tua, because Tua was a killer puncher and would've outweighed Joe by a lot. And that's more power to put behind your punches.

Wilder hasn't outweighed anyone he's fought going on 11 years now. And he isn't likely to fight someone lighter than him when he does get in the ring and fight next. It'll be someone else who has a big weight advantage over him. And everyone will still expect Wilder to stop the guy, no matter who it is.

George wasn't the lighter man in all his fights for 11 or 12 years in a row. Neither was most of those guys. Wilder was, though.

 

That was a long answer that in no way related to what I wrote.

 

I never said George Foreman knocking out Joe Frazier wasn't a big deal.

Is that short enough?

 

Willard was the better win than Carpentier because he was the HW champion. If Carpentier was the champion and Willard was just some contender, the Carpentier KO would be better. The higher a fighter's rank, the more impressive the KO. I can't believe I have to explain this to you.

Knocking out a #1 contender who weighs 210 lbs is more impressive than knocking out some bum weighing 240 lbs whose ranked #27.

Knocking out a champion is more impressive than knocking out a contender.

You want to reinvent the wheel and change the criteria people have been using for decades to judge quality punching power because Wilder's resume isn't that good. Is is impressive Wilder can KO men heavier than himself? Yes. Would it be better if he KO'd men who were heavy AND had a good record/ranking? Also yes.

Lamar Clark has a very impressive KO%...until you look at who he actually KO'd. Bunch of bums. He got exposed when a rookie Ali picked him apart. I'm not saying Wilder is Lamar Clark level, but anyone can look impressive KOing low level opposition. Beating ranked contenders/champions/durable prospects/etc is the sign of truly elite power. Even guys with mediocre power like Holmes and Holyfield can KO bums, that doesn't mean someone is an ELITE puncher. The higher a guy's rank is, there is a tendency for them to be more durable and competent too.

So you can repeat yourself saying "the only guy Wilder didn't stop was Fury" all you want, it won't change the fact that statistic isn't that remarkable when 90% of his resume is fluff. Context matters. Stopping Arreola was impressive because he was a big durable guy and Wilder had a broken hand...stopped him faster than Vitali did. I count that as an impressive display of power for Wilder. KOing Stiverne in 1 round when he went the distance with him in their previous fight...impressive. Outside of those 2 and the Ortiz win, he doesn't have much in terms of world class stoppages. Arreola and Stiverne aren't particularly great opponents either, but with context they are impressive stoppages.

Bringing up fights where Foreman was a trillion years old isn't helping your argument. B your own logic, peak Foreman in the 70's was a murderous puncher. He steamrolled the division with a 90% KO ratio. I mean, if we're just looking at numbers and ignoring context that's insanely impressive. Whether the opponent was a bum, a journeyman like Wepner, a contender like Lyle, or a champion like Frazier, he knocked them all out. You can bring up weight all you want, but you judge a fighter by the era they fought in and the quality of the opposition.

So if we're talking about Wilder's era and the quality of opposition, he failed to face:

-Wladmir
-Pulev
-Hrgovic
-Dubois
-Ruiz
-Joshua
-Povetkin
-Usyk
-Joyce
-Chisora
-Whyte

What's the excuse for missing this many names? It's the same reason I criticize Bowe and don't rate him that high.


What relevant names did Foreman fail to fight in the 70's?

-Shavers
-Bugner
-Quarry

That's it. Foreman beat Lyle right after he beat Shavers, so that's on Shavers. Basically 2 guys. There's more than half a dozen quality opponents wilder missed somehow despite being a pro of over 12 years with plenty of good names to choose from.

What relevant names did Liston miss...?

-Terrel
-Cooper

That's it. During Liston's prime, he steamrolled through the division and was knocking out multiple contenders, prime opponents, etc. Terrel is the only world class name he missed.


Noe if you want to criticize Shavers for failing to stop some of his better opponents as he stepped up in class, by all means do so. I said in my first post Shavers was a bit overrated and relies heavily on his highlight reel and quotes from other fighters to get on the Mt. Rushmore. Wladmir is a bit trickier because he never fought the other best guy of his era (Vitali) but dominated for a decade KOing ranked contenders. He's certainly more proven as a puncher than Wilder if we're looking at quality wins.

 

I picked Lewis and Tyson, since they weren't only hard punches but have some great KO wins to boot. Wlad, I think, also kind of falls into this category, even though perhaps not quite as impressive list of scalps. Then Wilder, who although he's managed to face much weaker opposition than the previous three, just have preposterous power.

 

Short, but still beside the point.

 

Deontay Wilder isn't Lamar Clark.

Deontay Wilder was the WBC Heavyweight Champion for five years. He made 10 successful heavyweight title defenses (including one against Tyson Fury).

He is ranked in the top 10 all-time in terms of number of successful heavyweight title defenses and longest individual heavyweight title reign.

And he's arguably the hardest puncher in the division's history.

I wouldn't compare anyone on that list to Lamar Clark.

If you're comparing Wilder to Lamar Clark, there's no point in talking further.

Anyone doing so hasn't been paying attention at all over the last eight to 10 years.