Liston explains the 2nd Ali fight

Good one Mike - I’ve read/heard that too.

If that was a legit threat and associated concern known and felt by both parties, I doubt either man would want to be in the ring for too long that night.

I know I’d want to be out of there asap - it’d be like shooting a fish in a barrel bit given the proximity a boxing match demands - the wrong fish might well have been shot.

Putting Liston aside for a moment, Ali carried a lot of his own controversy and threat around with him back in the day.

 

Cheers Greg.

 

Honestly Pug, this is the best and most carefully studied analysis I’ve ever seen of the Ali-Liston II ending — too often I think we see focus on the inept referee and the buffoon from The Ring acting like he’s the Captain Kirk of this particular enterprise, and not enough on actual film analysis and context of not just how Liston went down or rolled or whatever, but exactly what happened to put him down and how Ali’s antics played a role in Liston’s reactions and how things were perceived.

But you really hit on some fantastic points I’d like to underscore:

1) The “Phantom Punch.” Without this label being put on it from the start, I wonder how many would have taken and run with the dive theory. Whatever role it played in that conclusion or theory, it is a false foundation. Because the punch did indeed land, and with force. You can see it, as you noted, in slow motion and in the less-often-seen side view.

I would add one other factor: this fight wasn’t widely seen at the time, I think it was a massive fail on closed circuit (Liston quitting the first time, subsequently getting arrested — not for the first time — and Ali turning a lot of people off with his conversion to Islam and his general brashness). It was in an obscure venue. And despite Liston quitting, Ali’s performance in the first fight left little doubt in the public’s mind who would win.

To me, all this combined to allow the narrative that Ali didn’t even really hit Liston to coalesce and become accepted (even though the ‘phantom punch’ wasn’t really phantom at all) and many never bothered to see the slow-mo or other angle and just accepted the fix/dive as fact.

2) Great catch by you to note Sonny being front-foot heavy, almost lunging in with his lumbering jab adding to the force of the blow (and obscuring his vision from even seeing the lightning-quick counter). And more particularly that he was on his left heel as the punch landed. Given the angle of the force and Liston not being anchored properly, a knockdown was really the only realistic outcome of that shot.

3) Your comparison of Ali’s reaction to that of his actions in the Bonavena fight. I think you are correct in assessing that Ali really wanted a decisive KO. He knew the ending of the first fight was unsatisfying and took away from a brilliant and largely dominant performance. He wanted to butcher Liston and leave no doubt, and his exuberance led in large part to another unsatisfying ending.

In short, I think you cracked the DaVinci code on this long-debated “mystery.” There’s a degree of Liberty Valance at play here — when fact becomes legend, print the legend. And the phantom punch/fix/dive “fact” that wasn’t a fact became legend.

I salute your explanation and, equally, your articulation of it. Bravo, maestro … bravo.

 

You’re too kind, seriously - but thank you my man.

All analyses have been top shelf, including your own of course.

Interactively we often selectively (consciously or unconsciously) piece meal together all features of our own different POVs and perhaps settle on something we think and might agree is the most likely conclusion.

You’ve just now introduced several excellent, valid, and fresh points of your own - including the point re a lack of viewership.

Just to expand on that one point. I once had an old late 60s boxing mag. I bought at second hand book store in the 1980s that included a brief article on Liston vs Martin.

I don’t know what the real time numbers were on viewing for that fight but the article clearly implied or stated that the outcome was suspicious and that a dive might’ve been involved.

I’d never the seen the film of the fight at that stage so I didn’t know better.

I now have to wonder now if the person who wrote the article even saw the fight.

Sure, if you read just the result - Martin KO Liston round 9 and perhaps also had an inkling that Liston was initially dominating - you might “buy” the suggestion of a “fix” - and there was also the pervading belief that Liston had already taken a dive in Maine and possibly in Miami also, both fights several years prior - so there was that snowball effect in terms of successive, unfounded suspicions surrounding Liston feeding on themselves.

Sometimes just the mere outcome of a fight, divorcing supporting complexion, is difficult for people to reconcile themselves to.

Of course, we’ve all seen the Martin fight now and know that Liston was legitimately poleaxed - and while it was a shocking, unforeseen result and somewhat in defiance of complexion to a point, it was nonetheless, irrefutably genuine.

 

We have, of course, another case of an Ali ‘controversy’ that was legend based on non-fact.

I had heard for much of my life, as had we all who were around long enough ago (and who among us on this forum is still eligible for rookie of the year at this stage, haha), about how Angelo Dundee tore a hole in his man’s glove (or enlarged one that was already there) to make them go find new gloves in the back when Ali fought Henry Cooper the first time. This, of course, to give Ali time to recover from a knockdown by prolonging the rest period.

The legend, of course, is that some 5 minutes or more (or 20 seconds, or longer than 5 minutes, or somewhere in between — depending on the version being relayed) — elapsed before the fight resumed. Along came some film to establish that the delay was 2-3 seconds (the ref didn’t allow the delay for new gloves) and *boom* we have a big deal. But of course the legend wasn’t fact.

 

That’s another excellent example.

Dundee was one of the chief perps of the myth because it promoted his savvy and worth as a trainer/cornerman.

Cooper was known to embellish the story too - but I think Henry pushed it primarily for the sake of a good, ripping yarn.

Of the IVs I’ve seen, Henry didn’t relate the story with any bitterness - in fact, he was often quite jovial when talking about it.

On the other hand, Cooper said he didn’t at all begrudge Ali’s corner using the smelling salts - illegal in the UK at the time but not militantly enforced - you’d at least cop a warning first before any official action.

Cooper said in complete honesty that his corner would’ve done same for him had they deemed it necessary.

 

Back with a boom. Welcome back Pugs!

 

Thanks Champ.

 

Everybody makes excuses for the second fight, but his performance in the first one was pathetic for a reigning lineal champion as well.

Watch Tyson vs Douglas how he stumbles up and shoves the mouthpiece back in sideways to try to keep fighting.

Holyfield vs Bowe, taking shot after shot from a much bigger man but refusing to yield and go into survival mode even when outmatched.

Frazier getting up again and again vs Foreman even though he was being manhandled like a child.

Thats how you defend the biggest prize in sports, the lineal heavyweight championship.

Performances like Seldon vs Tyson, Douglas vs Holyfield and Liston vs Ali are disrespectful towards the men that would have been willing to die to keep the title

 

Yeah, we'll never know for sure, but my best bet is that he quit in both fights.

I think the KD was legit in the second fight, but once on the floor I think Liston thought "this is going worse than the first, **** this".

I think Ali broke Liston in the 5th round in the first, when he couldn't KO even a blinded Ali. He must have known then that there was no way for him to win, because he wasn't going to outbox or outwork him.

Before the rematch he might have tried to convince himself that it was going to be different this time, but instead quickly found out that the gap between them had widened (not surprisingly) over the 1,5 years since the first. So when the opportunity came to get out, I think he took it. Or tried to rather, because if Walcott hadn't messed up the fight would have continued.

 

Sonny saved himself another ass whuppin.

 

I thought he did that roll over thing because he realized Walcott screwed up the count and that was to give him time to count him out.

 

I agree. One can only guess of course. I can see why he wouldn't want to rise with Ali about but not for faking an attempt to do so finished with a theatrical roll.

 

Always thought it was a case of Occams Razor. Never bought into the absurd theories perpetrated by maniacs with no substance or facts whatsoever to back themselves up. Had a 'debate' lets say, with a liston 'expert' who is now claiming he has proof of the fix. Coincidently the same guy has a book to sell too. The Jim Rockford side of me came out and turns out a lot of his info came from a clairvoyent (i kid you not) that had spoke to sonny and he told them the skinny. 1 thing does stick in my craw though is the rolling over again by Sonny. It just does not seem consistent with his claim. even though i do believe Sonnys side of things.

 

A Denver TV camera crew met the Listons arriving at Stapleton Airport after the Lewiston fiasco. They filmed Sonny grinning broadly. The video used to be stored at the old Colorado History Museum. It seemed inappropriate for him to be grinning but maybe it was from embarrassment.