Is Sonny Liston A Top Ten HW ATG?

Hi Pugguy.
Jim Wicks : " I wouldn't let Cooper in the same town as Liston, let alone the same ring " from memory.....
stay safe buddy.

 

No I'm not acting as if you knew the answer, I'm literally just asking you who you think could win under those conditions? I'm not interested in any of this other jibber jabber.

 

Well, Byrd is a much more suitable comparison than Peter. Ali and Peter fought nothing alike.

When Vitali fought a fast, slippery, counter puncher in Byrd, he quit on his stool with an injured shoulder just like Liston. Not sure how that helps your case for Vitali beating Ali.

 

Lol why were you asking exactly?

 

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Just answer why you’re asking it’s not hard. You’ve been badgering me the entire time as if I’ve said something contrary to you? Don’t say you haven’t it’s obvious, speak up.

 

Beautiful! Thanks Mike.

 

My definition? Do you have a different one?

The word I've used was that his record was "probably better". But this will be the fffth or sixth time that I ask you why you think Louis's best victims were so superior, and I have several times answered your questions in between, so answer my one question before you get any more answers from me.

Or you know what, just go with which HW champions you think have better top wins and why. No need to isolate it to just Louis if you don't want to. That's more constructive really.

If you answer any of these, I will give you my view.

 

You deserve a medal old mate and Cobe can have one too i reckon

 

Hey, what doesn't one do for the cause.

 

I’m using yours so we aren’t arguing backwards with different definitions. I’m not trying to be an irksome fellow and I hope it’s not coming across that way over text. We are talking about Louis so I won’t refer elsewhere - I agree with “Probably” but the impression I got (Sorry if it’s wrong) was that you were making it out Floyd as champ was clearly better then anyone Louis beat? We can end it there if you’d like?

I’ll go with Schemling as my first pin for you to try and knock down, if you’d like to continue- let’s go on a one point by point basis starting with there wins, just so it doesn’t get messy, I’d like to start there because I am confident here - could please you put forth your argument for Floyd (at the time of the Liston fight’s) record and your reasoning for his superiority in this category over Max?

 

You want me to clarify my reasoning but don't clarify your own? That looks very much like you'e don't want to offer up any specifics that I can pick apart but instead waits for me to give you that opportunity. Your whole approach has been this way.

But so be it.

So, when I compare records I do so over whole careers.and here I think Floyd's consistency sets him apart. With the exception of Quarry (which was highly controversial) he never lost to anyone who wasn't champion or nr 1 contender.

And he beat a fair amount of contenders. 11 official wins, 14 if you count the Quarry and Ellis fights. And the official wins were all clear and uncontroversial. They also stretched over 16 years.

Max's is a bit more spotty. If you discount the early losses and draws there's still Daniel, Hamas and a draw to Uzcudun. And without doing a full count I don't think he's even very close to Floyd in terms of wins against ranked opp.

He has the win over Louis, though, and that is so great that it alone might balance this out and even more. That's always a hard balance to strike, but I can certainly see a case for that.

That's a weaker argument when rating it as a win for Louis, though. "Schmeling is a great win for Louis because he beat Louis". That would kind of make Louis's own record stronger than if he never lost to Max.

If we're looking at their records going into the fights, it's pretty much the same except that Max didn't have the win over Louis yet and Floyd only had the sole loss to Ingo, which had been twice avenged.

So, what are your reasons for disagreeing with me?

 

There isn’t a disagreement. You’ve already set the table and said “probably” we are just discussing but we can continue to try and pick an answer together. We are sticking with wins first.

So to begin Max has the superior singular win? I don’t think that’s very debatable. His win was a one sided affair against potentially the greatest HW ever to Pattersons destruction of a 39? year old Archie Moore.

Would you agree with this assessment? 1-0 for Max so far.

 

The reply to this would of course be the one I've given in the thread I quoted:

"He has the win over Louis, though, and that is so great that it alone might balance this out and even more. That's always a hard balance to strike, but I can certainly see a case for that.

That's a weaker argument when rating it as a win for Louis, though. "Schmeling is a great win for Louis because he beat Louis". That would kind of make Louis's own record stronger than if he never lost to Max."

So instead of asking me questions I've already answered, give me your whole assessment and then we can discuss from there.

Just give an answer.

A bonus would be how you think Liston's best win stack up against other champions'. You think he is very overrated considering his top win, so since no one has said that he's higher than bottom 10 and a third don't even have him there there must be many champion's with a better one, right?

 

Good to see that you're still fighting the good fight Swag !