What is an ATG + Zhang discussion

i think when we discuss all time great (ATG), each person will have their own criteria on what it means to them. which is why i believe there is such a heated banter among boxing fans when discussing a fighter's place in history.

 

Some people will turn a washing machine inside out and still try to make it work.

 

Whilst true... I think there's probably some baseline of achievement necessary that most of us would agree on, and it's not fantasy matchmaking, it's resume.

If you haven't beaten at least a few of the best in your era you can't be an ATG, because you're not even a great within your own era.

Zhang looked good against Joyce but...
1) Styles make fights.
2) Joyce's best wins were fringe contenders at best.
3) Joyce was overhyped - he was/is a fringe contender who left it far too late to step in and build up a resume that could make him one of the top guys in the division.

Zhang and Joyce have a lot in common - both have decent enough resumes for a fringe contender but nothing more.
Both left it too late to step up.
Both are massive hypejobs.

Put simply, Zhang just doesn't have time left to build a case for ATG, that ship has sailed.

 

Vitali Klitschko is a good example of that. Weak resume but he was clearly skilled and the best of his era with his brother, atg.
Same with Crawford for example.

 

We measure greatness by acomplishments.

 

People were hating Wlad untill he retired, now he's an ATG that would beat anyone in the division, including the guy who schooled him and the other who knocked him out.

 

He hasn't done anything. Going forward he won't fight long enough to do much and in this era of giant sissies, nobody will likely fight him anyway. So he's pretty much doomed in that regard.

Head to head? I maintain that most of the smaller ATGs run him around the ring for 6 or 8 rounds landing shots enough to not be too far behind when Zhang gets tired and then have their way with him. Yes, if Big Bang fought them all in a row 4 months in between each fight, peak Zhang shows up each outing, he'll catch one of em' in a non-peak moment and stretch em' out. Odds are odds. RNG exists.

But the idea that he is any kind of ATG (by any metric: h2h, resume, achievements, what have you) at this point is ludicrous imo. And it's unlikely to change due to his age and the era in which he fights.

Even so, if any of the other current notable heavies will fight him, I'm interested. There isn't really a top 5 matchup for him out there that is not interesting regardless of it's historic significance or lack thereof. If nothing else due to the paucity of current upper tier heavyweight clashes.

 

Wlad could be a fairly mediocre watch despite being a real top drawer fighter - it should be no surprise his stocks have risen now fans aren't just desperate to see him beaten.

And I don't recall him ever being schooled...

 

Pre-Corrie Sanders (or maybe pre-Lamon Brewster I) Wlad was incredibly fun to watch, great offensive fighter. Great, fluid movement. I thought he was going to be an ATG- he just forgot about defense.

 

Ali beat a prime Foreman who become a Lineal champion in the 90s.

End thread.

 

Oh I didn't say he always was, but at times he could be - especially as he aged.

 

Fury. Wlad was already beaten when they played the anthems, he knew he was going to get destroyed. Completely demoralized, couldn't throw a single punch. Scared of the big man.

 

That's not my recollection of that fight.. Wlad was definitely gunshy, possibly even disinterested... and Fury still stunk the place out to win.

I don't consider it a schooling - a boxer who can school another doesn't run a mile from the rematch.