What is an ATG + Zhang discussion

MEAN MUG · Sep 30, 2023

MEAN MUG said: ↑

ali stunk, terribly overrated
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Dynamicpuncher said: ↑

Ali beat a prime Foreman who become a Lineal champion in the 90s.

End thread.
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ali stunk even in his prime

MEAN MUG · Sep 30, 2023

he is a bum

MEAN MUG · Sep 30, 2023

BubblesUK said: ↑

Whilst true... I think there's probably some baseline of achievement necessary that most of us would agree on, and it's not fantasy matchmaking, it's resume.

If you haven't beaten at least a few of the best in your era you can't be an ATG, because you're not even a great within your own era.

Zhang looked good against Joyce but...
1) Styles make fights.
2) Joyce's best wins were fringe contenders at best.
3) Joyce was overhyped - he was/is a fringe contender who left it far too late to step in and build up a resume that could make him one of the top guys in the division.

Zhang and Joyce have a lot in common - both have decent enough resumes for a fringe contender but nothing more.
Both left it too late to step up.
Both are massive hypejobs.

Put simply, Zhang just doesn't have time left to build a case for ATG, that ship has sailed.
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zhang stinks

MEAN MUG · Sep 30, 2023

columbo said: ↑

i think when we discuss all time great (ATG), each person will have their own criteria on what it means to them. which is why i believe there is such a heated banter among boxing fans when discussing a fighter's place in history.
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these fighters are all bums today

MEAN MUG · Sep 30, 2023

Chin Diesel said: ↑

"in this era of giant sissies, nobody will likely fight him anyway"

It's actually the opposite. He's already fought two highly ranked fighters three times and he would have been a ducked terror in the past. Joe Louis was a "giant sissy" by your standards because he said he'd never fight a southpaw. Even a light heavyweight southpaw.

"I maintain that most of the smaller ATGs run him around the ring for 6 or 8 rounds"

That's your opinion but factually they never fought anyone remotely like Zhang. The only pre-Klitschko heavyweight who fought a few good southpaws (former LHW/cruiser-size southpaws at that) was Holyfield and his record against them was 1-3.

"But the idea that he is any kind of ATG"

I define ATG in the piece. It's got nothing to do with H2H ability except in one's time. Ibeabuchi might have been a higher level heavyweight than many with far more accomplishments on paper for all we know. He's not regarded as an ATG even if he'd have beaten most of them.
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Joe Louis was a BUM

MEAN MUG · Sep 30, 2023

Chin Diesel said: ↑

"in this era of giant sissies, nobody will likely fight him anyway"

It's actually the opposite. He's already fought two highly ranked fighters three times and he would have been a ducked terror in the past. Joe Louis was a "giant sissy" by your standards because he said he'd never fight a southpaw. Even a light heavyweight southpaw.

"I maintain that most of the smaller ATGs run him around the ring for 6 or 8 rounds"

That's your opinion but factually they never fought anyone remotely like Zhang. The only pre-Klitschko heavyweight who fought a few good southpaws (former LHW/cruiser-size southpaws at that) was Holyfield and his record against them was 1-3.

"But the idea that he is any kind of ATG"

I define ATG in the piece. It's got nothing to do with H2H ability except in one's time. Ibeabuchi might have been a higher level heavyweight than many with far more accomplishments on paper for all we know. He's not regarded as an ATG even if he'd have beaten most of them.
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MEAN MUG · Sep 30, 2023

there all BUMS

MEAN MUG · Sep 30, 2023

Chin Diesel said: ↑

You become an ATG by accomplishing significant things in your time. Ali for instance is considered an ATG partly or largely because he was a very successful boxer in the 60's and 70's.

But Ali never beat anyone after 1978. No one really knows how he would perform in subsequent eras. For all we know he may have lost to most of the top champions who came after him. The landscape doesn't remain static over time and all subsequent fighters could study him whereas he couldn't study them.

So being an ATG doesn't mean that you would be in the mix 50, 100 or 200 years later. This doesn't diminish Ali etc. in his own time as that's the only time he could operate in unless he had a time machine.

In this regard many are saying that Zhang is overrated after his last few fights. And he may well be relative to the other fighters around right now. But I don't know of any 6'6, 20 stone southpaws with an Olympic silver, 24-25 years of experience and massive two-handed power from the past. Maybe a historian can provide a list of similar fighters from 30-60 years ago if I'm wrong. So it's not inconceivable at all that Zhang would have the ability to walk through a lot of ATG's, who accomplished much in their time but never experienced a fighter remotely like Zhang. We know that many of them never fought a pro southpaw, with some losing to cruiserweight-sized southpaws multiple times in the amateurs. And we know that southpaws are extremely dangerous even to modern heavyweights with a lot of experience against them.

It's also obvious that many fighters would underestimate Zhang. Hrgovic likely did based on the Forrest fight where something was badly wrong and he only got an 8-4 decision over Zhang due to boxing politics. Zhang would have the further benefit of being Chinese, so there is the prejudiced assumption held by many (and likely even more prevalent in the past) that he cannot possibly fight very well. Despite Chinese population size and boxing being banned in China until relatively recently.

So Zhang has a historically unique collection of attributes and would be massively underestimated for several reasons. It's quite clear that many would get a rude awakening like Hrgovic and Joyce.
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Zhang is a Bum also

MEAN MUG · Sep 30, 2023

GGGunbeatable said: ↑

Fury. Wlad was already beaten when they played the anthems, he knew he was going to get destroyed. Completely demoralized, couldn't throw a single punch. Scared of the big man.
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Fury a BIGGER BUM

MEAN MUG · Sep 30, 2023

Chin Diesel said: ↑

You become an ATG by accomplishing significant things in your time. Ali for instance is considered an ATG partly or largely because he was a very successful boxer in the 60's and 70's.

But Ali never beat anyone after 1978. No one really knows how he would perform in subsequent eras. For all we know he may have lost to most of the top champions who came after him. The landscape doesn't remain static over time and all subsequent fighters could study him whereas he couldn't study them.

So being an ATG doesn't mean that you would be in the mix 50, 100 or 200 years later. This doesn't diminish Ali etc. in his own time as that's the only time he could operate in unless he had a time machine.

In this regard many are saying that Zhang is overrated after his last few fights. And he may well be relative to the other fighters around right now. But I don't know of any 6'6, 20 stone southpaws with an Olympic silver, 24-25 years of experience and massive two-handed power from the past. Maybe a historian can provide a list of similar fighters from 30-60 years ago if I'm wrong. So it's not inconceivable at all that Zhang would have the ability to walk through a lot of ATG's, who accomplished much in their time but never experienced a fighter remotely like Zhang. We know that many of them never fought a pro southpaw, with some losing to cruiserweight-sized southpaws multiple times in the amateurs. And we know that southpaws are extremely dangerous even to modern heavyweights with a lot of experience against them.

It's also obvious that many fighters would underestimate Zhang. Hrgovic likely did based on the Forrest fight where something was badly wrong and he only got an 8-4 decision over Zhang due to boxing politics. Zhang would have the further benefit of being Chinese, so there is the prejudiced assumption held by many (and likely even more prevalent in the past) that he cannot possibly fight very well. Despite Chinese population size and boxing being banned in China until relatively recently.

So Zhang has a historically unique collection of attributes and would be massively underestimated for several reasons. It's quite clear that many would get a rude awakening like Hrgovic and Joyce.
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the only great fighter was Rocky M

Sks476 · Sep 30, 2023

Zhang is not even in contention to be considered an ATG. He needs to clean up his era to stake a claim. Beating Joyce is a good achievement but it's crazy to start talking about ATG after that.

Sks476 · Sep 30, 2023

GGGunbeatable said: ↑

People were hating Wlad untill he retired, now he's an ATG that would beat anyone in the division, including the guy who schooled him and the other who knocked him out.
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Wlad was rather old when he got "schooled" and knocked out. Let's see how Fury looks when he turns 40.

Chin Diesel · Oct 1, 2023

Sks476 said: ↑

Zhang is not even in contention to be considered an ATG. He needs to clean up his era to stake a claim. Beating Joyce is a good achievement but it's crazy to start talking about ATG after that.
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Unrelated to the essay. I guess a lot of people comment without reading.

Chin Diesel · Oct 1, 2023

Sks476 said: ↑

Wlad was rather old when he got "schooled" and knocked out. Let's see how Fury looks when he turns 40.
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Wlad was in his 20's when he got KO'd by the journeyman and two fringe contenders, he did vastly better in his 30's. Bowe was retired at 29, Zhang looks better than ever at 40. Wlad blew the fight against a green, there for the taking Joshua and should have rematched him.

SmackDaBum · Oct 1, 2023

Ali would have been trash today. Hard to find in the rankings. Maybe boxrec top 200 at best? Old nostalgia freaks needs to be humbled by the harsh reality all backed by cold hard facts...

Accept or keep dreaming. Easy choice for me. I prefer skills and talent - Not only talent in a weak division from the past.

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