Closer fight in your eyes: Norton-Holmes, or Holmes-Witherspoon?

I see what you mean about Ali/Shavers. As tough as he still was,this was a guy who should have packed it in two years previously. I find it hard to watch any of Muhammad's fights post Manila except for snippets whenever I'm discussing certain bouts on this site.

 

Good points yourself DWC.

I’ll just say re Larry pacing himself differently, that circles back to my originally intended point - the complexion might be rearranged but the overall scheme, in terms of actions/reactions might remain the same.

So, I wasn’t conversely affording any overall and ultimate advantage to Ken IF Larry’s activity was toned down in the early rounds.

Totally agree that Larry holding back could’ve invited earlier and higher activity from Norton which could’ve lead to even greater fatigue on Norton’s part in the later rounds.

Or, if Norton still held himself in check as he did, the rounds Larry did win clearly might not be so cut and dried.

Anyway, as I suggested earlier, Ken accented that the motive behind his strategy was to allow Holmes to tire himself out.

However, I believe that strategy was designed as much (if not more) to allow the older Ken to preserve himself and step it up later in the fight, particularly during the rounds that Holmes had never fought into - versus Norton’s own experience in going the full 15 rounds.

I think Larry well and truly proved in the Norton fight that he was innately built for hanging tough and shining in the championship rounds himself - which of course made for the great fight that it was.

Lol, yes post Manila there are a few fights of Ali’s that were snoozers.

To put it another way, judges seemed to be conned over time into becoming attuned to Ali’s “style” of fighting - conned into believing that of lot of inaction on Ali’s part during fights was somehow froze Ali being scored against himself.

Just imo, announcers all too often, falsely observed that Ali was catching shots and the elbows - when, in fact, more than a few shots were actually getting through while he played the rope a dope or a expressly covered up otherwise.

But rest assured, I understand that you feel that Larry won a clear and away UD at any rate - total respect for that opinion - and that opinion is, in no way, is an isolated opinion - except when comparing to the actual scores posted by the judges - who, one way or another, saw it as an incredibly close fight - I agree that they got it right in that regard.

 

As @JohnThomas1 said he might find he has the fight alot closer if he rewatches it. I remember my dad bought me a Larry Holmes career set it was my first my first career set. And when I first watched Norton vs Holmes as a kid I thought Holmes won fairly comfortable in the region of 10-5 or 9-6.

But when I rewatched it again last year it was alot closer than I remembered it being, my initial memory of Holmes starting off well was indeed correct. But Norton was alot stronger after 6th round of the fight than I remembered.

 

Maybe I should rewatch again and again it until I have Norton coming out the winner?

Maybe you'll rewatch it again and have Holmes a winner by the margin you had the first time? I, like many, grew up knowing this was a really close fight that went to the last round and i, like many others, watched it and thought 'I didn't have it as close as i thought i would' and it certainly wasn't level after 14- so Larry didn't need that last round after all.

 

I scored it 8-6-1 to Larry at last watch. Excellent encore for the great heavyweight battles of that decade.

 

Aye...and most who have it 8-7 tended to have it 8-6 after 14 (not dissimilar to a lot of Leonard-Duran cards actually).

 

I've always had Holmes the winner everytime i've seen the fight which is 5 times i think ?

I watched it twice last year once more in 60 FPS because i had to experience the fight in such high quality, i think overall Holmes didn't need the 15th round as i had Holmes 2 ahead by that point. But i had Norton clearly winning the 15th round hence making it a 1 point win for Holmes on my card.

 

Going round by round Montreal is really close, so no wonder some had it for Leonard. Duran had the more dominant rounds, so a win for Ray would feel off, but certainly no robbery.

 

I think I had Holmes winning by a round against Norton, but a bit more against Wittherspoon. Don't remember how much, though. Maybe I'll rewatch them.

 

Duran-Leonard was closer round by round than either of these Holmes fights.

 

I had it about the same as Holmes-Norton.