Dumphy: '63 Liston vs. past greats

You read as if heavily predisposed to rejecting the best possible evidence available for a shoulder injury.

If there was no medical certification for an injury (including x rays) my guess is that your protest would wind back to no evidence for injury being provided whatsoever.

So what, realistically obtainable, evidence do need beyond what was/has been made available - perhaps the vision of Liston’s whole left arm dropping off from the shoulder before he surrendered?

Lewiston Maine was a circus with multiple clowns playing their roles and contributing to the mayhem. Liston’s NOT your fall guy for that hot mess - even though the finger for singular blame for whatever was all too often pointed at him.

Do you buy that Liston deliberately dipped his gloves also? Even though - any other complaints of same against Liston came AFTER the fact of Miami. Ali and his own team deemed the blinding as accidental.

There’s a thing called Band Wagon jumping - and that’s exactly what 1-2 of Liston’s previously vanquished opposition did to excuse their previous losses to Liston.

Machen bad mouthed Liston leading into and after their fight. If there was a complaint to be made re Liston dipping the gloves during their fight, Machen would’ve most certainly broadcast it. BUT, he didn’t. What up with dat?

He only made complaint some 3 odd years after the fact of the Liston fight in 1960, and shortly following the Ali-Liston fight in 1964. The dots are easy to join - and they spell BS as far as Machen’s own belated claims of foul play were concerned.

 

You're on top of your game Pug !

 

Lol, too kind.

I have my lucid moments, but I’m in and out all the time.

I try to only post during the “in” times - doesn’t always work though. I’m starting to haze up already, I better go.

 

This was before MRI, so if Liston told him his shoulder hurt so much he couldn't move it there wasn't much they could say about ti. It should be said that a medical expert has later watched the fight film and claimed in a study that Liston does not show any of the symptoms of a torn rotator cuff.

There were reports of the doctors showing an X-ray and if they did that to show tissue damage, not skeletal. then it was probably a hoax.

 

Key word is 'probably '.The medical expert who claimed that Liston showed no signs of distress concerning his shoulder is heavily outnumbered by his colleagues who backed Liston's claims of an injured shoulder.
Other witnesses who watched the fight say Liston was clearly unable to lift his left shoulder.They may not have been medical experts but the eyes don't lie.
The weight of evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of Sonny Liston.

 

Let's dispose of the low hanging fruit first.

Obviously we have to favor Liston over Tunney, for a number of reasons, even though Tunney is a bad man to bet against.

Liston has a strong stylistic advantage over Marciano, and it would be very reasonable to roll with that, although Marciano is literally the worst man to bet against.

Dempsey is at a stylistic disadvantage, but also one that he showed himself to be adept at overcoming.

Dempsey's head movement is outstanding, and he combines it with footwork, sometimes circling his opponents.

If somebody tries to attack you, and you cant think of anything else, just walk round them in circles.

They will struggle to land on you.

Now Louis should be a strong favorite over Liston, based on their styles, and also their respective careers.

If Liston is going to be favorite over Louis, we would expect a hell of a lot more from him.

 

There is the cornerman who said it was the made up on the spot and Mort Shatnik, a reporter, who was with Liston in the hospital and reported nothing about pain or injury and said Listom quit, so I wouldn't agree.

 

Completely untrue. Both Ali, and Dundee have dismissed this myth that the blinding was intentional on Liston's part.

 

Did Liston's team also pay time travelers to go back in time before the bout, to conspire with Liston's doctor, have him diagnose Liston with burstitus and treat him with cortisone?

I have no idea how you're still here. 10 plus years, and not a single contribution with any value.

 

Without getting into any 'this doctor said this' or 'only Liston knows how he felt' debate. I treat watching this fight as if I was viewing it for the 1st time and when I first saw it, which was probably around 1990ish, I have to say I was shocked that it ended like that, insomuch as it wasn't greatly obvious that a fighter who'd thrown multiple jabs throughout the fight (probably as many as Clay did) and who'd thrown 20+ that previous round, had to quit at exactly the time he did. So, as we don't know how he's feeling or if it's partly mental as well as physical, those in the 'I think he could have continued' camp are every bit as legit as those in the 'he had to stop at exactly that time' camp, in my opinion.

 

With respect,I must again emphasise the evidence in Liston's favour is overwhelming.The reporter you have referred to is countered by the Sports Illustrated writer Ted Maule who was at ringside.He was adamant that Liston couldn't raise his left arm above waist level.

As for the cornerman,well without wishing to go into the world of unsubstantiated claims, ( so beloved of another poster I've corresponded with ! ) but could there be a strong possibility
that he gave a fictious,sensational version of events for some extra cash ?

That the findings of the eight doctors was validated by the Florida State Attorney Richard Gerstein surely makes any possibility of corrupt,untruthful behaviour extremely unlikely.

 

Less possible than cash being involved the other way, I'd say. Who would have bribed him? Hauser 30 years later, because it's in his book.

Ans Shatnik didn't just see Liston from rinhsdie, as dozens of others did, he was with him at the hospital.

And this whole eight doctors thing.... Only one was needed and all he could do was ask Liston how the shoulder felt. And if it's true they showed an X-ray it's probably a hoax since X-ray wouldn't be of any use for that type of injury. Only MRI and that wasn't invented yet.

It should also be noted that Duran's claim of stomach cramps, which he later admitted was a lie, was also validated by a doctor after the fight:

“The doctor told me he absolutely had a severely distended stomach,” Wallau said.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-12-05-sp-149-story.html

 

If Liston fights Dempsey, It's Ovah for Liston.

 

Liston doesn't have the deepest of resumes, but I think he looks great on film. Had everything except speed, really.

 

Surely it is more likely that one man ( the cornerman ) could be tempted by the extra cash that
his somewhat colourful version of events would earn him ( this wouldn't necessarily be a 'bribe'
by another party ) rather than such a large number of doctors.
Why such a large group of doctors ? Well we have the answer right here.It was such a major issue
that fifty-eight years later this is still a controversial subject.Can you imagine how exercised the
boxing industry was about this issue at the time it took place ? Hence the admittedly overload of
professional opinion.
How would Shatnik know that Liston wasn't in pain ? Did he give any specific reasons why he thought
the whole episode was a hoax ?
Ok so Duran lied about his ' stomach cramps '.Fine,ok.However that's hardly substantial evidence that
Liston's shoulder injury was a hoax.