Dumphy: '63 Liston vs. past greats

There was nothing about the context that gave any hint of money being exchanged. It was just a small part in Hauser's book.

Certainly for show. In any case, all they could do was to ask Liston how fe felt, like the doctor did Duran when he claimed stomach cramps and the doctor believed him.

How could he not know that Liston was in so much pain that he couldn't lift his arm when he was in the same room with him, for chrissakes? You'd have to be blind and deaf to miss that, and he was a reporter, being there to find out was going on. There's is no way he could have missed that Liston was in debilitating pain. So either he wasn't or Shatnik lied. No two ways about ti.

I've given the quotes in another thread and can't be arsed to find them again, but it's about Liston saying "they told me he couldn't punch, but he could" about Ali and his manager saying "what are we going to do now" and Shatnik coming from there thinking Liston quit. Nothing whatsoever about any injury.

 

You do have a tendency to use incidents/events/quotes which are absolutely immaterial as to
whether Liston was lying or telling the truth.
What if Liston was surprised at Muhammad Ali's punching power ? A boxer being surprised
by his opponent's punching power is hardly an unknown event in boxing.
Again the episode concerning Duran has no bearing on what happened to Sonny Liston.This is
such a weak premise on your part.
The idea that such a large group of doctors casually asked Liston if he was hurt and simply took
his word for it without carrying the most forensic examinations of Sonny's arm is quite frankly
ludicrous.This involved the World Heavyweight Championship,only marginally less important
than a presidential election.You can bet your last cent this episode would have been investigated thoroughly.
You ask if Shatnik was lying ?
May I ask if all those investigating doctors,Ted Maule of Sports Illustrated,and Richard Gerstein were lying ?

 

This is getting surreal.

My statemant was simply that there is no way a reporter would be in there with a Liston who couldn't lift his arm but notice nothing about that and come from there with the conviction that he quit because he was losing anyway.

This shouldn't be the least bit controversial.

Of course it has. It goes to show that a doctor's report can be dead wrong. You seem to treat it like irrefutable truth, but the Duran case show that it doesn't have to be at all.

I repeat: If he said it hurt they'd have no way of double checking that without MRI, so they'd probably take his word for it. Like the doctor in the Duran case. Many diagnoses work like that. You ask the patient how it feels and go on his/her word if there's nothing you can visibly check, like an MRI.

I do not believe he was examined separately by all eight however, so I don't know why they were all there. Maybe one examined him and the rest listened. The result would be the same anyhow.

 

It's definitely ovah at some point in the first six rounds. I just don't see the much smaller Dempsey (who would be considered a Joe Smith style LHW these days) to have the physical oomph to take it to Liston, which is about the only way he can really approach this fight. Liston's jab will be doing major concussive damage to Dempsey's grill regardless of how much bobbing and weaving he does to get away from it, and sooner or later one of those thumping shots puts him down and out for good.

 

Hard to pick him in any fantasy fight because in 1963 all he was known for was blowing out a "gimme" in Floyd Patterson. Whenever a big puncher goes through another figher easily, people get all excited and think he would have done that to every other fighter in history.
Fans often do that with Tyson's win over Spinks. He could have been completely out of shape and still would have KO'ed Spinks as quickly as he did. He had the right fighter in there with him at that moment, and it made him look sensational.

I think Liston had quit in him. I think he was the kind of fighter that could bully and overpower lesser fighters, but not against other greats.

 

Er....I am aware that doctors are not infallible,thank you.

Let's examine the two medical cases we are discussing.Duran had claimed he had stomach cramps.
A comparatively trivial complaint that probably wasn't examined too thoroughly by the single doctor involved.
Now let's look at Liston's injury.A team of eight doctors had declared,in very specific terms, that the torn tendon had bled down into the mass of the bicep,swelling and numbing the arm.
This is a very specific verdict that was surely delivered by a thorough,forensic examination or a number of examinations.
Quite frankly I think the two cases are incompatible.
Now,for the umpteenth time,what I am saying is the weight of evidence is firmly in favour of Sonny Liston.

 

As a 8 fight rookie Liston fought several rounds with a broken jaw.Hardly the behaviour of a quitter.
Also Liston took some serious punches in his two fights with Cleveland Williams,the most feared
puncher in his time.Liston stoically absorbed the punches and a broken nose ( in the first fight ) and
came back to knock Williams out ( both fights ).Again hardly the actions of a quitter.

 

Even IF one believes that Liston quit in Miami without a legitimate physical injury to fall back on, it’s still doesn’t necessarily follow that you can call him a quitter in general.

But for one fight, Roberto Duran was no quitter - in fact, he was quite the antithesis otherwise.

Liston was still more physically damaged in other ways (besides the shoulder) than Roberto was when Hands of Stone surrendered against Leonard in New Orleans.

Liston was also older than Duran per listing, and likely several years older again in reality.

It’s reasonable to accept that a deteriorated fighter in later career, might be more prone to quitting than he was in his prime - if he was ever prone to quitting at all during his peak years.

One fight certainly doesn’t a warrant an inflexible rubber stamp to deem a fighter a quitter across the board.

Duran is the perfect example in counter.

 

Excellent analysis Pug.

 

Thanks Champ.

 

I think most people don't regard Liston as a quitter, but overall, not quitting in a fight you still think you'll win (say, when taking big shots from Cleveland Williams) isn't the same as quitting because you don't think you can win anymore (Miami).

True, well two nights. He quit vs Pat Lawlor and seemed to be unsure where exactly he was going to tell everyone his pain was coming from, he seemed to be holding his shoulder, then his ribs, then possibly thought about saying he was going to crap himself again.

Fair point. Duran has no excuses, other than desperately wanting to take any credit away from Leonard and, for some strange reason, thought this looked the best way.

True, see Pat Lawlor above. And multiple fighters near the end of the road.

I agree too, but for me, who's to say Duran, with his oft-documented voracious appetite didn't feel like he did in New Orleans multiple times throughout his career , I think it's likely he did. But because he was fighting, say, a Jimmy Batten, he knew he had enough to still win- or likely win (which is similar to 'no quit' vs Williams and 'quit' vs Clay).

 

The doctor described a 'severly distended stomach" for Duran. Specific and not at all trivial, I'd say.

And what the other seven doctors did in Liston's case has never been clear to me. If they were in fact waving an X-ray around to prove tissue damage it seems all a bit strange.

I know that's your claim. It just doesn't hold up. There's way too much contradictory evidence:

1. He shows absolutely nothing during the fight, almost exclusively used the allegedly injured arm in the last round. But exactly then it's supposed to stop functioning, first when it's quite clear he can't win.

A scientific study later also confirmed that he should have showed a lot more pain and hindered movement for that type of injury.

2. A corner man says it was made up on the spot.

3. A reporter who's with Liston at the hospital reports nothing about an injury, but instead thinks Liston quit because he was losing.

4. Rinse and repeat in the rematch.

So for me it's nonsense to say that there's an overwhelming case for an injury so severe it stopped him from continuing (he could well have had something, though).

But as it is I'm just repeating myself, so I will leave it at that.

 

Fair enough,it's pretty obvious neither of us will make the other change his mind.Fine,so let's
end this debate.

 

All excellent points.

I think there’s a reasonable contingent who, based solely on Miami, do actually think Liston would quit under the very types of duress you identified - including being behind in a fight.

They’ve also reasoned that several ATGs could bring him to that “abandon ship” threshold.

Sonny obviously did it in tough and hung tough in the first fight with Marshall - can’t recall exactly, but I think his jaw was busted in round 2 and he went on to lose a SD after 8 rounds.

I agree that a relatively abbreviated slugfest, albeit fierce (vs Williams) is different to a protracted, punch for punch fight which one might also be losing whilst also seeing the writing on the wall.

Still, to Liston’s credit at the least, he had a busted nose, admitted that Williams almost had him out but Sonny stuck to his game and he punched through the storm.

Though we saw what 38 yo Duran did against Barkley, I left out the Lawlor fight due to his age and the wear/tear accrued over a long career.

I’ve read the observation a number of times that Duran was sometimes erratic and not always dedicated post Montreal.

Tbh, in view of age, the increasingly longer career building behind him and moving beyond his best weight - I think it natural for lesser performances to be the rule - not the exception.

Performances such as those posted against Hagler and Barkley were the exception in terms of what could be reasonably expected of Duran.

For its relative lack of mention, there seem to be some who don’t even account for Durans long career as a dominating lightweight - some people read as if Duran was “birthed” as a Welter who added pounds and moved up thereafter.

Of course the upper weight divisions were where all the truly big names of the 80s were at - names with which Duran is more commonly associated with - but that association began from and during a time in Duran’s career when deteriorations in fighters are par for the course.

The fact that Duran defied that natural decline with several stunning performances was indeed extraordinary in my book.

As to dodgy doctors, in my very early working life, I liked to “Quit” a few Mondays here and there - especially after some particularly fun filled weekends. I didn’t have the “heart “ to go to work.

I had a very “accomodating” local doctor - URTI (Upper Respiratory Tract Infection) was my choice ailment which he often signed off on.

He was a Good Doctor.

No word of lie, after one consultation I had with him, I saw him immediately leave his examining room, go outside, spark up a cigarette and then head straight into the betting Tab - which was a couple of doors up from the Medical Centre.

I was helping to finance his gambling habit and whatever other vices he had. Win Win for both of us.

 

Excellent post Pug.

I wonder how those, who refer to Liston & Duran as "quitters" in such a definitive sense, would honestly answer the below questions, that I've asked myself & answered:

1) Have I ever given up when trying to achieve something that was important to me? Yes
2) Do I consider the term "quitter" a fair representation of my levels of determination, stubbornness & capacity to endure hardship in pursuit of a goal? No

Like most people, I've gone through good times & bad, had times when I've felt focused & driven, and times when I've felt disillusioned or without clear purpose. In the main, I'm a relatively driven, determined and stubborn individual, who is more effective than most at getting what I want. I don't consider myself a quitter, however there have been times in my life, or specific circumstances I've encountered, where I've been predisposed to give up more easily than I usually would. Now, Duran & Liston are/were far tougher & more determined men than I'll ever be, but they are still just that, men, i.e. human, with the capacity to act out of character under certain circumstances and/or at certain times in their lives.

It's fine to say Duran and Liston quit.

Assessing the conditions under which they quit is subjective & people have different opinions as to how bad their respective physical conditions/injuries were & to what degree they contributed to their quitting, which is also fine.

However, I'd encourage anyone considering assigning either with the general & definitive term of "quitter", to ask themselves & to honestly answer the 2 x questions above.