The Great Heavyweight Debate: Muhammad Ali vs. Joe Louis - Who's the HW GOAT?

Fast handed fighters would be worse for Ali considering he'd lose his speed advantage. See: Doug Jones and Ken Norton.
He had trouble with Jimmy Young. I don't see why you sneer at the thought of Conn winning rounds against him.

 

Think about it.

I've made it clear we are talking about peak Ali and defined that emphatically as 60's Ali. Norton did not fight 60's Ali. Jimmy Young didn't remotely fight 60's Ali, he fought badly faded old Ali. As a matter of fact Young fought Ali a full 9 years after his last ever fight in the 60's.

If we are going to bring up Doug Jones well Louis was absolutely schooled and ko'd by Schmeling at a more advanced stage than Ali was when he beat Doug Jones.

I didn't sneer at Conn winning rounds, i said he would be whooped - and he would. 60's Ali would more than match Conn in speed and he had alllllllll that size and power on him as well. It's literally a nightmare matchup for Conn.

 

The problem with dismissing the Jones, Young and Norton fights because Ali wasn't in his prime for any of them is that when Ali was in his prime he fought opponents who didn't have those traits.

If Norton, Jones and Young troubled Ali, how much of an easier time would Ali have against them in his prime?

Conn has the chin, skill, speed and stamina to hang in there with a prime Ali and give him issues.

 

Do you really think peak Ali would have struggled with Jones? When Ali managed to dance for a while vs Norton he had his way. I mean Ali was past it for Jimmy Young and grossly out of shape as well. Do you seriously think 67 Ali wouldn't deal with Jimmy Young? Louis had multiple struggles at his absolute peak if i want to be drawn into being critical and guys like Galento, for all the praise classicists will try and allocate them, weren't really that great.

I can tear Joe apart if i want to fixate on negatives.

I disagree, Conn wouldn't do much of anything with peak Ali. It's a mismatch to be quite frank. Conn giving Louis trouble simply doesn't equate to Con giving peak Ali trouble.

 

Seeing as nobody else has mentioned it, I will.

Since they were allowed to fight for the title, black heavyweights dominated until the allure of other sports like basketball, football took over and the talent pool of black heavyweights (specifically heavies as these sports require big guys) declined radically.

For whatever reason, the weight suits the race's physicality, in much the same way Mexicans and Eastern fighters are better suited to lighter divisions; featherweight and below.

Black fighters seem to retain their athleticism better at higher weights. I'm not being racist. It's just how it is. Joe's reign seemed to miss all the black fighters. John Henry Lewis was blind, almost, and Walcott was unlucky to get the nod and he was getting past it. That's it, isn't it? In terms of black opposition. Not saying Joe ducked them. It might well have been politically impossible still, at the time. I don't know.

For Joe to have such a paucity of black opponents means he left some questions unanswered. It's a huge mark against him for me so I have said Ali and I'm afraid it needed little reflection.

 

Patterson was heavyweight champ of the world, with defenses and beat numerous top 10 contenders over many years. John Henry Lewis was half blind and having his last ever fight after 116 of them. Patterson is not the same tier as a heavyweight. John Henry wouldn't be lucky slot in the top 100 heavyweights and Conn would be well outside top 50.

As a matter of fact Patterson would rate above all of Louis' opponents on most respectable heavyweight lists. Pattersons around the edge of the 20 which would be above Walcott, Schmeling, Baer and co.

 

Who did Ali beat in his prime that would make you believe he'd wipe the floor with Jones?
Guys like Chuvalo? Folley? Williams?
When Ali was forced to become the aggressor against a quick opponent he didn't look as good.
What makes you think Conn would stand no chance?
Because Conn has the chin, inside fighting, quickness and grit to give Ali issues.

 

Liston, Patterson and Terrell. Patterson was every bit as quick as Jones. Ali also made a fool of Jones in an exhibition in the mid 60's, if that means something.

Conn had success with Louis because he took away his offensive foundation, and used Louis' lack of dynamic footwork against him. That wouldn't happen with a target as dynamic, quick and elusive as Ali, who didn't rely that much on sheer offensive skill.

 

"Half blind" Lewis beat Ettore, Johnny Risko and Elmer Ray on his way to challenge Louis. Half blind Lewis said that his eye problems were present before he even won the Light Heavyweight Championship. Yet Louis gets no credit for the round 1 ko.
Patterson achieved more at Heavyweight than Lewis and Conn because those guys retired after Louis beat them. Patterson remained after he lost to Liston so he managed to beat guys like Quarry, Ellis and Bonavena. In terms of ability he is in the same league as those guys.

 

Ali lights up Conn with the jab and lands that right hand lead on him time and time again once he gets Conn's rhythm and timing.

The way Ali finished off Folley and Foster is how Conn goes. Conn was too small comparatively and Ali didn't let much smaller fighters get off easy once he hit his stride.

This Conn nonsense is disingenuous.

 

Liston and Terrell had different styles than Jones. I did not know about he exhibition.
The reason I think Conn would be troublesome is that he would force Ali to take a role he was not comfortable with, being the aggressor, having to chase a fighter who he has no speed advantage over. Ali is better at medium-long range, Conn is better at close range. The issue is that Ali, unlike Louis will not fight up close. He will just clinch and reset after the referee breaks them.
I think Ali wins but if I had to chose one guy who Louis fought to give Ali a tough fight, Conn would be it.

 

But was beaten by Schmeling before he got out of the gate.

Look, ALi for me. Just too many great fighters. Foreman, FrazierX2, NortonX2, Liston, Patterson...

Yes, Baer, Walcott, Schmeling, and Conn is also an impressive crew, but not like Ali's list.

Love Louis, though.

 

I don't think he could. Ali feasted on smaller technical fighters like Patterson, Ellis, Quarry and Foster. In fact, he stopped all of them. Conn would have to fight a guy that is bigger, stronger and maybe even faster than him. That is disastrous at Heavyweight. He might go the distance, and would have his moments here and there, but he would finish the fight stumbling like a zombie.

 

I’m fine with either of those guys at # 1. Take your pick

 

The reach and weight difference is crazy and Ali would rag doll and lean on him in the clinch.

I don't see how Conn wins - claims of him forcing Ali to be the aggressor, I don't see it. That corkscrew jab in his forehead will have its impact and at some point, Conn will try to get on the inside and catch a right that he doesn't see coming.

I can't see him lasting the distance as I expect at some point he's going to try to force the inside fight and Ali will get p1ssed off - he will get walked down in a similar manner to Foster and Folley IMO.