I just rewatched Leonard-Benitez

Tommy may have gone on to become an ATG, but I don't think he had yet peaked when Ray fought him. As far as that fight, Ray clearly lost the first five to an aggressive Hitman, then hurt Tommy in round six and nearly stopped him in round 7. He then got outboxed in rounds 8-12, unable to close the distance and get inside when Tommy fought from the outside. Then he hurt him again with a grazing shot in 13 and finished him in the next round... Okay, that's 10 rounds for Tommy, not 11.

Every time I see that fight, Tommy is the one who impresses me. Ray just literally followed him around and won on the strength of a handful of punches. I would've expected them to be a bit more evenly matched is what I'm saying.

 

Duran was past peak, Hearns was not quite peak...........

Oddly, I don't recall you showing much interest in examining context or nuance when you repeat, ad nauseum, that Lomachenko is 17-3. Could it not be argued, for example, that Loma was passed peak against Haney??? I look forward to you arguing that the next time the subject comes up.


If Leonard won 5 rounds, which I believe he did (as did two of the three judges, incidentally), that's 8 rounds for Hearns, not 10 or 11.

Hearns fought brilliantly that night. No argument here. He was a great fighter with physical advantages that would have caused any welterweight in history problems. That Hearns could trouble a top 2-3 welterweight of all-time is a testament to his greatness, not evidence that Leonard was overrated.

 

There have been poles on May/SRL. and I don't recall many picking Mayweather over a Prime SRL. SRL fought in an era were there were ATG's in and around his weight. He faced them all and won. Damn good fighter. Can't see May dealing with that. Prime SRL Dominates this era and the era prior.

 

Have to remember when making these comparisons is SRL’s start weight was 147 which was Floyd’s 4th division. So it’s hard to say because Floyd at 130-140 was very different from the older and more defensive oriented guy that fought at 147. Same for Pac his peak weight may have been 130-135. That’s why it’s always hard to judge different eras.

That said Ray Leonard, Duran, Benitez, Hearns and Hagler all achieved things in a short term that takes decades in todays time to accomplish.

 

Look, there is no question that Leonard was an ATG. I was only addressing the notion of him being lauded as the ultimate, most complete fighter of his generation.

His speed didn't really seem to trouble Duran amd Hearns all that much; they looked faster than him. He couldn't hurt Duran and got bullied by a career lightweight... then ran from him in rematch. RAN.

Tommy was literally clowning and toying with him for the first third of their fight, got hurt, and then proceeded to find a second way to gobble up rounds IN THE SAME FIGHT

His peak was also remarkably short, so even his body of work is questionable. I am not sure how he can be regarded as more complete a fighter than a peak Roberto Duran, for instance.

 

Odd thread. Did you watch a Floyd interview that made you so mad you needed to write all of this down like a diary or something? lol

 

I think out of the 80s guys that Floyd and Manny have the best shot at beating Duran - that's just me though (not saying it would happen)

 

Tommy was never "toying" with Leonard in the first fight at anytime and i am a Hearns fan. Hearns was not faster then Leonard that is just nonsense. He was 6'1 and fast in his own right but it was the height and reach along with his boxing ability that was giving Ray problems.

Nobody on planet earth thinks Duran was faster then Leonard because he was not. Beat by a career lightweight that had already moved up and beaten a former welterweight champion prior.

He boxed Durans ears off the second fight and Duran quit because he was being made to look like a fool.

Rays prime was cut short because of an INJURY but in that prime he beat unbeaten Benitez, unbeaten Hearns and a Duran who had not lost in years. And he STOPPED all three. All three are in the HOF.

 

Hearns did clown Leonard. At one point, it was so easy for him that he actually stole his bolo move. There was another point where he did a series of exaggerated feints and Leonard bit so hard that he fell into the ropes. Tommy was certainly quicker than Ray that night and.Ray was forced to load up and wait for his opportunity.

Duran was also quicker in their fight, IMO. Ray was fast, but he wasn't like a SRR or RJJ. He could be timed and made to look somewhat unspectacular in that department.

Ray's "stoppages" were bizarre. He was winning the Benitez fight, but he was not going to stop him if the ref let things go on. Wilfredo wasn't in enough trouble to warrant that outcome and should've been allowed to finish the fight.

He "stopped" Duran because Roberto grew frustrated from chasing around a buffoon and lost his mind. He was in no serious trouble at any point of the fight, as Ray had done nothing but run and clown.

Hearns was a legit stoppage, but it is also a fight that Ray had been thoroughly outboxed in.

 

P4P, 130lb Mayweather is the equivalent of Ray Leonard. People only seem to remember welterweight Floyd.

Ray is the bigger man and would have the advantage, but Floyd's prime ended the moment he moved up to 147 in search of bigger paydays.

 

Everyone he fought, and the fashion in which he beat them. Just as quick. Just as sharp. Possibly better on the stick, with a more stiff and varied jab. Not as heavy handed, but certainly more accurate.

Was Ray great because he beat those guys, or did he beat those guys because he was great? If the latter is more true, it is only fair to review his actual performances in those fights.