How the Classic Forum rate Rocky Graziano ??

Yeah, long as Zale and Graziano came in weight in the mid-150s and Jake was 167.

Mighty big of Jake to fight all those guys (even when losing his share) when he usually had a substantial weight advantage and was a light heavyweight.

Your goalposts shift a lot — well look at all these guys this middleweight fought … then it’s pointed out that he was rarely a middleweight when he fought them, that he lost to a lot of them, that a bunch of his wins over them were booed and considered robberies … and that you listed at least three fights he never even fought on that ‘impressive’ list of competition, haha.

 

Considering Graziano ducked out of more than one fight with LaMotta and Zale wanted nothing to do with him its a fair guess who would have won those fights. Ive said it before and I'll say it again, Vikki LaMotta, hardly Jakes best friend said herself Jake wanted to fight Rocky and would have beaten him "bad" her words. She also told the story about how they bet Rocky's wedding ring during a game of golf and Jake won. He took the ring. Rocky later showed up at their house to collect so as not to get in trouble with his wife and Jake punked him out and wouldnt give it to him until he showed up with cash to replace it. Rocky could sell tickets and had a great persona but Jake would have eaten his overrated ass for breakfast. As for Zale, Leon Thompson, Zales sparring partner who knew both Zale and LaMotta told me personally Jake would have beaten Zale and that Zale wanted nothing to do with him and this is coming from a guy who loved Zale and remained life long friends with him.

 

Apologies to you & McVey if I'm butting in &/or this contribution to your discussion is unwelcome, I'm certainly not attempting to take sides with either of you, I just thought some of the data I collated to support my top 20 all time MW ranking, where I rank LaMotta #16, may be relevant to your debate.

Based on fights contested at MW, where the heavier fighter determines which weight division the fight is contested at and allowing up to 164lbs for slightly over the weight non title contests, I've recorded Jake's MW record as follows:

MW Record - 46-10-2
MW Lineal WT record - 3-1 during his 20-month reign
Best wins - SRR (total record 1-5), Holman Williams, Marcel Cerdan, Tiberio Mitri, Bert Lytell SD, Robert Villemain SD (Villemain beat LaMotta in a fight for which Jake weighed 165lbs, which doesn't contribute to his MW record as shown above), Lauren Dauthuille (1-1), Fritzie Zivic (3-1) inc. 2 x SDs, Tony Janiro, Jackie Wilson, Tommy Bell x 3 & Jose Basora (2-1-1)
Prime losses - SRR (1-5, the first of which was when Jake had only just turned 20), Fritzie Zivic SD avenged x 2 (3-1), Lloyd Marshall & Laurent Dauthuille avenged (1-1)
Additional notes - Exceptional depth of names on his win resume, though some of those names weren't fully fledged MWs when Jake beat them. Holman Williams was likely past his prime, whilst wins over him, Villemain & Lytell were highly debatable decisions.

 

Lamotta was in the top ten from1942 to 1948.
Winning the title in Jun .49 .
Jake fought Holman Williams in 46 ,at the end of 45 Williams was the number 1 contender.
Lamotta fought 33 men who were heavier than him.
St Pat is entitled to his opinion ,but I really think we should concentrate on the subject of the thread now,he can make a thread about his opinion if he wants .

 

Yep and I don't dispute that he was a world class MW for the thick end of a decade, from 42 until he lost the title & departed the division in 51. Me ranking him as the 16th greatest MW of all time means I think his career is nothing to be sniffed at, though is a little lower than I've typically seen him ranked elsewhere, which is in part due to some of the factors cited by Saintpat.

 

Interesting data, but I’d say in Jake’s case in particular it’s misleading.

Allowing up to 164 for “around middleweight” might work when a guy fights a 162-pounder, but when he fights someone who is 149 it’s a middleweight vs. a welter. I think the lighter fighter should be at least 156 if you’re allowing Jake an extra four pounders — and look at weight differentials in his career. It’s astounding how often he was the bigger guy by a very significant margin.

A light heavy vs. a welter is not a fair fight, same as a light heavy vs. a junior middle.

 

Out of 106 fights, basically he was the smaller guy in 1/3rd of them.

But what’s the average weight differential? It’s different being the smaller man by say 2-3 pounds as compared to being the larger by 16. Maybe if I find time I’ll do the math.

Interesting that you keep posting on this topic on this thread but telling me I need to take my posts on the same topic elsewhere.

 

The way I chose to collate data for rankings was to assign each fight to 1 weight division, and 1 weight division only.

The weight of the heavier man determining the weight division, seemed most sensible to me.

Allowing a few lbs over for non title fights, seemed most sensible to me. e.g. A non title fight contested at 163lbs seemed better attributed to MW than LHW.

The task for the ranker, specific to the points you raise, is to factor in the size of the opponent to the quality of the win resume. e.g. La Motta beat a 144.5lbs SRR in a fight contested at MW. He doesn't get the same credit from me, when assessing his MW career and ranking him accordingly, that he would have done had he beaten a mature SRR from years later weighing closer to 160lbs.

 

The problem with pretending that the ONLY reason LaMotta beat a guy like Robinson was because of his weight ignores that Robinson fought a ton of guys who outweighed during this period and none of them beat him. Everybody back then recognized what Jake did was special regardless of weight. Furthermore, the issue isnt some false equivalence between Graziano and LaMotta because they fought smaller men. Jake was actively looking to fight the best fighters he could and legitimately rise in the rankings of his division. Graziano was actively avoiding the best fighters in his division while picking on much smaller fighters who were either ripe for the picking or werent that good to begin with. His record is notable not because of the great names on it but because of its startling lack of depth for s guy as well regarded as he is. The attempt to tear down LaMotta in order to make Graziano look better falls flat on its face because Lamotta was dying for that fight and Graziano never wanted any part of it.

 

All Time Great is quite a stretch. There are fighters like him all the time. David Lemieux anyone?

 

I have no interest in making Graziano look better, but there’s a difference in fighting and beating a man who is 16 pounds lighter than you and fighting a guy in your own division. Jake often didn’t even have the decency of getting down to the middleweight limit (him being a middleweight and all, or at least being perceived as such) when fighting welters.

By comparison, consider that Graziano usually weighed in the mid-150s when he fought them. It’s a fairer fight.

If you think a light heavyweight beating a welter is the same as a junior middle beating a welter, that’s your prerogative. You’d probably applaud 167-pound LaMotta beating the best bantamweight of the era, too.

 

I was replying to Greg,
I'm not telling you anything,if you're determined to have a row with someone ,
have it with some one else.I'm really not interested.I'll just sit back and watch Klompton dismantle you.

 

Very passive aggressive of you. “I was replying to Greg” yet you referenced me.

Not telling me anything … after you’ve told me to start another thread. Again, I didn’t bring the whole ‘fighting welterweights’ thing into the discussion but if that’s part of the discussion then providing (with detail) LaMotta’s rich history of fighting welters with a 10+ pound weight advantage and career-long pattern of weight bullying provides context.

To discuss this with Graziano weighing in the mid-150s while fighting welters in a vacuum doesn’t really give us a full picture when Jake was doing it regularly as a full-blown light heavyweight.

BTW, did you ever find that LaMotta-Booker fight you referenced or the other two LaMotta-Cerdan fights? Or will your buddy Klompton straighten you out on those?

 

By comparison to LaMotta, Graziano came in over the JUNIOR middleweight limit only 29 times in 83 fights and more than one pound over the middleweight limit (sometimes by a fraction of a pound btw) just six times. A lot of the times he was fighting welters, he was 152 or so. As compared to Jake often being 164 or more. BIG difference.

Someone mentioned LaMotta being like 20 years old the first time he fought Ray. It was LaMotta’s 32nd fight, Ray’s 36th, and Jake outweighed him 12 3/4 pounds — an error he corrected by coming in 16 pounds heavier than Ray in their second fight, Jake’s only win in the series.

 

I’m pretty sure Lá Motta knocked Robinson down and through the ropes in the fight he won and maybe another time in a losing bout as well.