Francis Ngannou ranking

Yep K1 in the 90s and 00s was amazing.

 

Just devaluing thier brand even more
The little irish twat got to fight for the belt didn't he
Ksi will be ranked next

 

UFC is a "global" platform & yet somehow it has little to no presence in a large chunk of Asia, Latin America etc. Hell it doesn't even have much of a presence in a massive market like Japan where MMA was popular for a time

If you are a Boxing fan anywhere in the world you are watching Boxing not Top Rank or Matchroom

Did the collapse of MMA in Japan not teach you any lessons?

MMA rode on the coat tails of Pride FC's brand & when the brand went under, so did the sport. For a few short years they did insane ratings & you had an MMA boom followed by a massive bust

Boxing's survival in Japan doesn't depend on Teiken promotions or Ohashi promotions & Inoue is just the latest in a long line of Japanese world champs. It might not sound sexy to you but there was a reason Boxing outlasted all the fads from catch wrestling in late 1800's to WW1 (the precursor to modern MMA in many ways), mob control in the 1940's & 50's under Frankie Carbo & IBC (IBC contracts worked similar to UFC contracts) while a Yakuza scandal buried both Pride FC & MMA in Japan, communist suppression of all pro Boxing in the entire communist bloc (as soon as communism collapsed all that suppressed talent started to enter the pro ranks & the rest is history), & vocal calls for a ban at various points (e. g. in the 80's when the AMA was clamoring for a ban after Mancini killed Kim)

I never said UFC can't do stadium events, what I said was if Boxing wasn't producing "stars" then Fury wouldn't be bringing 91,000 people to Wembley

 

What happened to kickboxing after K1 was bought out & went through financial troubles. Kickboxing as a sport went through a deep downturn because its success was tied up with the promoters

It has never recovered to those glory years which is partly why you see all these Kickboxing stars trying to enter MMA where they can earn more (I am sure UFC is paying Alexis Pereira more than Glory) or go into Boxing where they can earn even more (e. g. both Nasukawa Tenshin & Takei Yoshiki are now Boxing). Same with Muay Thai, guys who can transition to Boxing do so because there is no money in Muay Thai. Examples include Khaosai Galaxy & Samart Payakaroon. Even Rungvisai initially wanted to be a pro Muay Thai fighter

 

Very knowledgeable post.

I agree Boxing is the sport that has more fans. I mean my grandparents like boxing. They would get up to watch Muhammad Ali fight. My parents like boxing. All generations love Boxing.

I think MMA fans are mostly in their 20s/30s/40s.

Therefore also more money gets generated in Boxing. And the talent goes where the money is. (Although that’s not a black and white matter)

But as far as matchmaking goes MMA organizations consistently put together good cards and it’s clear who the Champion is.

It comes down to this: UFC got 1 belt. That’s Boxings biggest problem.

 

He deserves it. I hate the fact that a complete novice went life and death with the champ, but it happened.

The rankings are a ranking of the best boxers in the world. Fury, as the champ, is supposedly the best there is. If Ngannou had won, surely he should be considered better than Fury, no?

So, if a guy has one fight and we see he belongs among the best, then he should be ranked among them.
Sure racking up a bunch of wins is also an accomplishment, but is a guy that beats 30 cab drivers better than a guy that went the distance with the champ? Maybe...but we know the champ is the best, so the guy that hangs in there with the champ deserves to be ranked. It's not even like he's ranked 1st. He's 10. Name 9 guys you think would have done better against the champion. Not as easy as you think.

That said, don't get it twisted. The WBC is still absolutely corrupt and should not be taken seriously by anyone.

 

As I said in another thread what is possible in MMA isn't possible in Boxing because

1) Boxing has a much bigger global presence so it is very difficult for 1 promoter to sign 80-90% of the top talent like the UFC does. PBC tried to but it came up way short to 80-90%
2) UFC belt is promoter controlled & their rankings are also in house promoter rankings which would go against the law in American Boxing or as Dana White would say "that's f*cking illegal"

On point #1, think about how difficult it would be for a US promoter to enter a market like Japan & just buyout Teiken, Ohashi etc. Then repeat the same with Sauerland in Germany, Queensbury, Boxxer & Matchroom in UK, you get the point...

I expanded on all these points in this thread

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...xing-if-it-sells-less-ppv-than-boxing.713157/

Go through my posts there, particularly the article about the SCOTUS ruling against the IBC & dissolving it in the 1950's (they were trying to become the UFC of Boxing), the letter ABA sent to PBC when they heard PBC was trying to create its own PBC belts pointing out they would be violating the Ali act

 

Ok that is very interesting and I will read it.

But still, without having read further into it, ideally there will be 1 organization that maintains a transparent ranking system. 1 Champion and ranked contenders.

Then it’s the promoters jobs to make the fights and they can make the money. The World Title organization should be free of corruption and not in the hands of promoters. And I think it’s only possible to fight corruption if there is only 1 organization.

Ideally local markets have their own regional title. Like Japanese title, German title, European title etc.

Then the German Champion can challenge the European Champion, the European Champion can challenge the World Champion.

National titles and titles like the European title meant something. Nowadays it means nothing. There has been inflation of titles. 4 World titles and then those organizations have interim titles and so on.

 

Is the UFC the biggest combat sports promotion on the planet by a wide margin or not? I would say a sport having its NFL, NBA etc ie a clear no1 highly visible promotion/league is overall a positive thing because it makes it very accessible and focuses peoples attention in one place.

Its not like Japanese MMA is even dead. Rizin ran the Saitama Super Arena a few months back and generally gets solid attendances.

How big is boxing in Japan anyway really? I fully accept that Inoue is bigger than any MMA fighter there and boxing bigger than MMA there etc but ive never got the sense that its some killer market for boxing in spite of the massive population. Like Inoue went over to fight in ****ing Glasgow a few years back. Surely a massive star in a massive market isnt going over to friggin Glasgow when they could do monster numbers in their primary market instead? nobody is letting AJ fight in Nigeria or Conor in Ireland any time soon.

A quick check on Boxrec shows 23 pro events in Japan for the rest of the year, for comparisons sake the UK has 38 over that time frame with half the population. And most of those Japan events are taking place in small arenas like Korauken Hall which is comparable to the kind of venues something like Cage Warriors runs lol.

Fury is absolutely a star. Never said boxing doesnt still have stars, but the UFC produces stars at a higher rate these days. Theres several factors that go into that - the UFC having such a big promotional platform compared to any one boxing promotion, the way that the UFC pushes fighters up the ranks much quicker into big fights etc. Its also partly to do with how MMA rules fight just have a higher probability of producing "viral" moments that can get a lot of attention. An obvious example of this is how in 2019 within the space of a few months Jorge went from a career journeyman to one of the hottest things in combat sports basically off the back of a flying knee, a backstage brawl and a catchphrase. You just wouldnt see that in boxing.

 

You do realize that was several years ago (when Inoue was less well known) & that it was a WBSS tournament right? Part of these tournaments typically is that a fighter has to travel at least once though SOB Ward got away with never stepping outside US for the Super 6. The first fight against Payano in that tournament happened in Japan as did the final against Donaire. Otherwise he typically fights in Japan though he will likely fight Nery in US next year as Nery is banned for life from Boxing in Japan

Japanese MMA is dead compared to what it drew during Pride FC days, not just in terms of audience (just compare Pride FC tv ratings vs what Rizin was getting) but even in terms of talent pool. I couldn't find a single Japanese fighter in the top 10 in any weight class:

https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/rankings

By contrast for Boxing you got:

1) Abe Reiya (126)
2) Inoue Naoya (122)
3) Inoue Takuma (118)
4) Nakatani Junto, Tanaka Kosei, & Ioka Kazuto (115)
5) Akui Seigo (112)
6) Teraji Kenshiro & Iwata Shokichi (108)
7) Shigeoka Yudai & Shigeoka Ginjiro (105)

https://www.ringtv.com/ratings/?weightclass=289

# of events isn't a good metric without controlling for weight classes. Most named Japanese boxers fight at 126 & below, to put on events you need pro Boxers & the number of active pro Boxers keeps going down when you go below 126 to the point that at 105 I think only a couple of hundred are active. LW & WW iirc have the largest talent pool

Inoue Naoya, Nakatani, Teraji, & before that Uchiyama have all fought/fight at Ariake or Super Saitama Arena & the Kameda bro's were probably bigger stars than Naoya

There is a great but now inactive site about Boxing in Asia including Japan (where PPV isn't a big thing) where you can find more info https://www.asianboxing.info/japanese-boxing-faq.html

Naoya Inoue draws huge viewership on tape delay (again)
11/2/2020

The first broadcasting in Japan was live on premium TV channel WOWOW, a channel that is somewhat similar to HBO or Showtime in the US. It's a premium subscription service, that combines high level content, such as movies and live sport.

The second, and more interesting broadcast, was on Fuji TV, a free to air channel in the Kanto region. It's Fuji TV that have backed Inoue heavily since his third professional bout and is a terrestrial channel, for our UK viewers think of it as ITV or channel 4. Although it was free on Fuji TV it wasn't live. Instead it was on tape delay around 12 hours after the original broadcasting. This meant it had a prime time slot on one of the biggest free to air channels in Japan.

Despite the tape delay the bout has been an instant rating success. In Kanto the bout got an average audience of 10.6%. That number is genuinely insane for a bout on tape delay, and is a massive increase on what Fuji have been showing in the same time slot.

The last 4 week average for Fuji in that same time slot has been 5.9%, giving this an increase of almost 5% over those recent weeks.

Notable this isn't a one off. Other Inoue bouts shown on tape delay have also drawn huge numbers, such as his bout with his bout against Emmanuel Rodriguez also drawing over 10% on tape delay.

Whilst it is a lower number that those that tuned in for Inoue's 2019 clash with Nonito Donaire, which was shown live on Fuji TV and NHK BS8K, it is still a number that genuinely dwarves numbers typically seen in the US and the UK.

https://www.asianboxing.info/asian-news/naoya-inoue-draws-huge-viewership-on-tape-delay-again

Inoue floored Donaire with a right in the first round, and in the second destroyed him with a flurry of left hooks, with the referee calling the fight at the 1:24 mark. With the victory, Inoue became the first Japanese champion recognized by three of the world's four major sanctioning bodies for pro boxing -- the WBA, IBF and WBC.

Amazon's Prime Video streaming service broadcast the match live, attracting on the day the most views of all its programs -- including movies and drama -- and demonstrating that even a bantamweight bout can be a huge draw.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Sports/Japan-s-Naoya-Inoue-destroys-boxing-stereotypes

More later if I have time

 

Is the lack of Japanese representation at the elite levels of MMA because theres actually less Japanese fighters or less "effort" being made now than there was 20 years ago though? or is it just them getting pushed out due to a combination of the no1 MMA org no longer being a Yakuza run Japanese promotion + the overall global talent pool growing massively?

Like you said, Japanese representation in boxing is generally at 126 and below. Most MMA orgs do not have divisions lower than 125.

 

I don't think MMA has a good amateur system worldwide from what I have seen & its probably the same in Japan. That is not the case for Japanese Boxing because Inoue isn't a one off & Japan has the 3rd most world title holders after US & Mexico iirc if you count historically. Right now the most interesting prospect is Tsutsumi Hayato who debuted at 126 lbs & won the OPBF title in his 3rd pro fight & might be challenging for a world title soon. You don't produce Ioka, Inoue, Tanaka, Nakatani, & possibly Tsutsumi 1 after the other without a good amateur system

When MMA was flying high in Japan, they should have invested in creating an amateur system because even now very few start out in MMA (i. e. by learning striking & grappling right from the start) but come from wrestling or kickboxing & then decide to cross train once they decide to enter MMA

It is partly about weight classes but not entirely because back in the day you had Gomi for example & the steep decline means there is less money for fighter payouts which in turn diminishes how many want to enter the sport (unless they want to learn English to increase their marketability & fight in UFC)

Most MMA orgs including Rizin end at 125/126 lbs which doesn't make any sense if you are talking about being "global" because its not just Japan as it would cover Korea, PRC, Taiwan, SE Asia, & a good chunk of Latin America as well because none of them get as big as Westerners. So many of these guys from Latin America & SE Asia sign with Japanese Boxing promoters like Teiken (e. g. Chocolatito signed with Teiken)

As I said in another thread guys who came from below 126 in Boxing include good fighters, national, & world icons: Wilfredo Gomez, Manny Pacquiao, Inoue Naoya, Sor Rungvisai, Chocolatito, Cuadras, Estrada, Ioka, Carlos Zarate etc.

If the UFC was as big as Boxing globally then they would cover these weight classes but Dana was threatening to cut even 125. It is unlikely that you will see a Thai UFC HW champion but Boxing gave them Sor Rungvisai & before him Khaosai Galaxy, Samart Payakaroon etc

 

I am not 100% on UFC and MMA not being popular in Asia.

I was told that in China the UFC fighters are more known then Zhilei Zhang. And China got 1.4 billion people.

 

Korea and China and some Latin American countries have had a degree of success in the UFC relative to the Japanese though. Korean Zombie was elite at one point. On the Chinese front Song Yadong is currently top 10 in his division, Leech i'd assume is top 20, Su Mudaerji is top 15, Zhang was champ etc. Then theres Chito (Ecuadorian), Moreno and Yair from Mexico etc. The UFC actually has 3 Chinese fighters a Korean and a Japanese fighter all on the same card next week.

As far as the global thing. Which promotion out there has more eyes on it spread across a wider range of countries than the UFC though? which promotion tours the world more? which has a wider range of nationalities represented on their roster?

Even outside of the UFC it feels to me like there are more MMA promotions operating at a decent scale than boxing promotions tbh, especially once you get outside of the US and UK. I get that theres a much larger talent pool for boxing and significantly more events happening but lets say you look up the schedule for both sports and then actually try to find footage of these events, it seems to me like theres way more MMA out there that can actually be watched for some reason.

 

Smart move by the WBC

Francis has a big following and the UFC crowd are the ones buying his PPVs.

The WBC gets 3% of his purses now. And they'll give him PEDs protection too because he is a cash cow.

Well done Sulaiman.