How I Scored All Of Muhammad Ali's Controversial Decisions

Two points. Scoring a fight when you already know the official result is a mug's game. When Ali was fighting I believe the heavyweight title had only changed hands by decision once in the history of the division.

 

Off the top of my head it was at least two. Dempsey-Tunney, and Baer-Braddock.

 

I know what you mean but Muhammad was just as good in the second Norton fight as he was in the second one with Frazier. Along with the Foreman and second Quarry bouts these were Ali's best post-exile performances.

 

Ali might've been just as good in his mid-trilogy bouts with Norton and Frazier. Difference is, Norton was quite likely at his all time best. Frazier on the other hand was never quite the same after TFOTC and I imagine the beating he took from Foreman couldn't help. I highly highly doubt Ali would've beaten FOTC Frazier nearly as easily as he did Norton if he even wins at all.

 

I have to admit I get a different result each time I was the Young fight. Norton definitely got outworked in the last couple of rounds of their third bout (probably thinking he had it in the bag), and your scoring looks about right to me. I thought Norton nicked the second fight, too.

If anyone wants to watch the Young fight online, I've got it on my channel here:

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I see what you mean,although Muhammad was better in the second Norton and Frazier bouts than he was in FOTC in my opinion.

 

Not sure I agree. Ali's performance in TFOTC was very underrated. While he clearly wasn't the same man he was pre-exile, he still put on an excellent showing, and put a huge beating on Frazier the first five rounds that quite frankly would've stopped most men imo. And when he couldn't dance anymore and was forced to trade with Frazier, he made an excellent showing imo even though it was a losing battle. When he planted his feet, he punched with deadly intentions. So even if he was overall better (which I'm still not convinced of) in his respective rematches against Norton and Frazier, I think FOTC Ali was better suited to fight Norton as I personally don't think Norton could've taken the punishment Frazier did, and imo would've been stopped. Also Ali in that fight imo did some of the best inside work in his career, even beating Frazier at times in exchanges.

Another reason I don't think Norton was worse style-wise for Ali was their first bout was fairly close by Norton's admission when Ali was in the worst shape out of all 6 fights, and Norton still had to settle for an SD. Does anyone think that version of Ali holds FOTC Frazier to an SD? Hell does anyone think Ali would've made the distance against that version of Frazier? Especially after sustaining a broken jaw in the 2nd round or thereabouts.

Frazier beat a much better version of Ali much more empathetically.

 

Good point. I'm also not sure the Ali of the Norton rubber hears the final bell against Manilla Frazier. Even less so against FOTC Frazier, of corse.

The Ali of the first and third Frazier fight was clearly better than the one of the first and third Norton fights. Of that there can be little doubt.

 

They robbed Frazier in the 2nd fight.

 

I agree. It's why I don't understand why people think Norton was a tougher match-up for Ali than Frazier. Futch himself picked FOTC Ali over Norton. Does anyone really think the FOTC Frazier would struggle more with an inferior in every sense of the word version of Ali, and beat him somehow much less decisively settling for a SD?

Or that FOTC Ali, who was significantly better than Norton I Ali, couldn't have nicked at least one more round (which is all he needed) to win the decision against Norton?

 

I wouldn't say Frazier was robbed, but Ali was allowed to get away with a frankly ridiculous amount of clinching.

 

The Fight


At the opening bell, the pattern was established—Ali circling, jabbing and throwing combinations and Frazier moving aggressively at Ali, bobbing and weaving in order to get under Ali's arms and land the left hook that had floored Ali in the 15th round of their Garden epic three years earlier. Through all 12 rounds, they maintained that pattern.

Ali landed a straight right to Frazier's jaw late in the second round. Wobbling slightly, Frazier retreated to the ropes, but the referee leaped between them.

"Somebody called 'bell,' so I stopped them both," Perez explained later. "Then the gong table yelled, 'Tony, the round isn't over.' Usually I hear the bell, but the bell was defective before the fight. They had to call the electrician to fix it. It was only five to eight seconds."

Afforded a moment's rest, Frazier easily finished the round, which ended 10 seconds later.

Throughout the bout, Frazier complained to Perez that Ali was holding too much. His trainer, Eddie Futch, told Perez, "You gotta stop this!"

"The only violation," Perez said after the bout, "is if you held and hit at the same time. Ali was holding, but he wasn't hitting."

Futch reviewed the film and said Ali had held Frazier 133 times during the fight.

Mark Kram of Sports Illustrated wrote:

In the end, it was a unanimous decision for Ali: ring generalship over a one-man army fighting a war of attrition. If the fight ever seemed close, it was only because of Frazier's incessant pursuit, which cannot fail to impress even those who may consider it plug ugly, and the occasional bursts—spaced far too far apart—of his left hook. For years it had been sudden evil, yet now it seemed only a moderately bad dream to Ali. For Ali knew what he was about on this night, recalling all the little things that make one a survivor: tying an opponent up, clever volleying when it would count the most, skirting sure trouble like a bank robber.
Unofficial Scorecards

• Associated Press: 8-4 for Ali
• United Press International: 7-4-1 for Ali
• World Boxing: 6-5-1 for Ali
• International Boxing: 7-4-1 for Ali

Muhammad Ali vs. Joe Frazier (2nd meeting) - BoxRec

 

It’s certainly arguable that Ali might’ve been in better form for the Frazier rematch than he was for the FOTC but the excessive clinching simply didn’t allow for the action/reactions dynamic and drama of the first fight to unpack.

If Ali wasn’t allowed to hold in fight 2, it might’ve also have easily evolved into a fight for the ages with Ali being put upon that much more but also answering the call as he did FOTC.

On physical appearance Ali came closest to his 60s trim and tone in Norton 2 and Frazier 2, about 212 lbs a piece for both fights. His performances also reflected his best possible 2nd career condition and match ready form.

The FOTC was clearly marked by Ali fatiguing in his own right some time around and after the 5th round - Ali thereafter more mindfully managing his past prime and consequently diminished tank but still putting up highly effective offensives against Joe whenever possible.

 

I agree with most of this but I don't know. Ali's performance in TFOTC was highly underrated imo. He would've still beaten 99% of heavyweights that night imo. Even though he lost, it was still one of his best performances. I certainly don't think Norton of the first fight, would've beaten this version of Ali, which is a requirement he'd have to meet, if he's really worse for Ali than Frazier was.

Another requirement that would have to be met is, Frazier struggling more with a much worse version of Ali and downgrading from a UD to an SD.

I honestly don't think the Ali of that bout goes the distance against FOTC Frazier.