How I Scored All Of Muhammad Ali's Controversial Decisions

Yeah, even though we accept Frazier as the better fighter than Ken, I don’t know if the Norton analogy works.

Ken never copped the lumps and punishment that Frazier did across all three Ali fights - each fight with Ali likely took a substantive piece of Frazier away - as they did, to a lesser extent, take pieces away from Ali.

Even if Norton faced and was defeated by FOTC Ali, I can’t envisage him being beat up like Joe was or coming out lesser a fighter for it.

However, that also leads to the question of how much did the FOTC itself take out of Ali.

Even if one believes that Ali hadn’t reached his best possible match, as at the time of the FOTC (personally, I don’t believe he had), whatever that potential was might’ve been subsequently diminished due to the FOTC and any fights thereafter, including the first match vs Norton.

So, I guess while one can say that Ali was all that he could be as at the time of Norton 2 and Frazier 2, it’s not mutually exclusive to also believe that the younger, less worn torn version, all be he not fully match ready, was still perhaps better.

For the sake of simplification, it could be the same as saying that 71 pre FOTC Ali at age 29, even at 90% of himself was still better than a fully and ideally match ready but, by then, older and more war/torn 73/74 Ali at age 31/32.

 

You're correct that Norton never copped much punishment from Ali (though the reverse is also true, Norton never hurt Ali to the point where Frazier did, taking years off his career and quite possibly life) but that's because Ali never really engaged him imo, he preferred to "float like a butterfly sting like a bee" as he put it. TFOTC was the one night, where he couldn't do it all night and was forced to come off his toes and stand his ground. Imo, that Ali was the one who hit the hardest, particularily when he sat down on his punches. Which is why I think that version of Ali, while not being at his best, actually has the best chance at knocking out Norton, not because he was better than he was pre-exile (he wasn't) but simply because of his gameplan. Their are relatively few fighters imo that could withstand the punishment Frazier did, and I don't think Norton's on that list tbh.
I also highly highly doubt any version of Norton beats FOTC Ali. Ali only lost by a round in their first fight (I admittedly haven't watched the fight in quite a while so I don't know how accurate the judge's cards were but will watch it as soon as I have the time). I find it very hard to believe FOTC Ali who was vastly superior in every way, wouldn't find ONE more round
I also highly doubt Frazier would have to settle for a split or any decision against the Ali Norton faced in their first bout.

 

Good points although I feel that Muhammad,as complacently as he had trained,was still in better shape for the first Norton fight than he was for the third.

 

Eddie Futch was a great man but, (somewhat speculative I know), I’ve sometimes wondered if there was a measure of loyal deference in part toward Frazier involved when he said that Norton wouldn’t have beaten the version of Ali from just a few years ago.

THAT version of Ali of course aligns with the one that Frazier beat - in suggesting a somewhat declined version of Ali by the time of the first Norton fight, Futch was maintaining the exclusivity of Joe’s victory over Ali and affording Frazier more credit for his victory over Ali.

Also, not sure if Futch’s comments related to just the first Norton fight - that version of Ali was definitely under par - while the version of Ali that turned up for the rematch was in so much better shape - mentally and physically - but even so, the rematch was still extremely close imo.

What was Futch’s view on all 3 Norton fight, did Eddie think Ken won them all? I can’t recall.

As to loyalty, Futch also defended Norton’s KO loss to Garcia, suggesting Garcia committed an overt foul. However, no other third party descriptions corroborated this claim - and I don’t believe Ken Norton ever claimed a foul himself.

I know you believe that FOTC Ali was the best version of 2nd career Ali - and that’s a fair view on it - however, separately, do you think he had a sufficient amount of time and lead in fights to be the best he possibly could be for Joe?

Personally, I don’t think he was - and the Quarry fight, with the Frazier bout only 2 fights away, reflected Ali already becoming tired after just 3 rounds.

Against Bonavena, Ali was a bit better off but still didn’t appear completely match fit and tired at different points.

And, just to reiterate - Ali fell off notably after round 5 against Frazier in his own right imo - his post comeback stamina not fully tuned in and up to speed.

 

I think that those who think of Norton as Ali's most difficult opponent think of how good Ali looked in the rematch and all the problems Norton still gave him.

But looking at all the fights, Frazier looks like the most difficult opponent for Ali.

 

Kenny said after the fight he thought he won, why wouldn't he? A fair few at ringside did, and he landed as many- if not more- punches and definitely landed the harder leather. When the dust settled, i'm sure he figured it was close enough to go Ali's way and he was probably content with a 1-1, knowing that a 3rd fight payday would be likely.

The one thing about the Young fight was that it was controversial, that's not up for debate, hence why it's in this thread and why so many at ringside didn't think Ali won (irrespective of your 150-134 card for him )

 

In overall movement, yes, but in actual punches thrown, Ali's volume was very consistent over the whole fight (if measured over three 3rds). In fact, he threw more leather in the final 3 rounds, than in the first 3, probably realising that the fight was slipping away from him.

 

I don't remember Norton saying he won, but I also didn't watch the post fight interview so I'm probably missing something. I do remember him conceding he lost the 2nd bout by losing the last round, but was adamant he was robbed in that third bout.

That was a typo. I meant to say aside from the Young and Norton trilogy bouts, their wasn't much controversy regarding Ali's decisions (with the possible exception of Shavers but I don't see to many people giving it to Shavers these days) in the late 70s.

 

Interesting. I assume that’s sourced from compubox?

 

The “quote” that is generally “quoted” was supposedly from an interview to be published in SI back in the late 70’s. Trouble is it never was published anywhere ever. That supposed quote lingers within the internet unfortunately.

Others put together a ten second video of Ali saying he lost the fight. Again an obvious fake with no context provided.

 

I've never heard that quote myself personally. The one reference from Ali not thinking he beat Norton was from a Ferdie Pacheco interview, where he they both chatted about the decision and that he was fortunate to receive it...then his permanently brown-nosing entourage came flooded in saying how great he was and Ali quickly changed his tune. The same cheerleaders still wanted him to carry on in the Holmes fight.

 

Yeah.....I'll never forget the image of Bundini Brown trying to persuade Angleo Dundee to let Muhammad out for the eleventh round in that Holmes fight. When I read about that in the evening paper the day following the fight I must have called Bundini every name under the sun,and some that had n't been invented yet!! Almost as alarming was John Travolta telling Muhammad that he should have got the verdict in the Trevor Berbick bout.

 

Luckily Travolta's stock had fallen by the time of the Berbick fight, to which Angelo replied "Shut it, Bubble Boy" (in reference to Ali's favourite Travolta film "The Boy in the Plastic Bubble").

 

I like it. John contributed to making the Berbick fight a Saturday Morning Nightmare - not that it needed any input from him to do that - If he were a true friend of Muhammad he should have tried to talk him out of taking the bout in the first place. The same for all of Ali's "friends" I loved the guy but some of his entourage made me want to puke at times.