Was Ali in his Prime when he Fought Doug Jones ?

I don't see how he could have been. He had very little experience against ranked fighters until that point and was only 21 years old.

 

He did. He only started looking like the real deal when he faced Liston, and he was getting better up until the Folley fight. He was still great in the 70s, but he was morfing into a different fighter then.

 

Yeah, I agree that it seems bizarre. But the fighter I see against Liston just seems superior in every way to the one that fought Jones and Cooper. I believe Ali just learned from his mistakes against Cooper and Jones, thus improving considerably for the Liston bout. Yeah, it's arbitrary, but I can't see any other way around it, some fighters just happen to improve drastically and suddenly at a particular time frame. That's my take, at least.

 

Larry Holmes’ prime pretty much began when he shut out Earnie Shavers in their first fight before Larry beat Norton. Four months earlier he didn’t look as good in stopping Ibar Arrington late. That’s kind of how it goes.

My experience coaching fighters — amateurs and pros, but none on that level — was that improvement seemed to be quantum. A guy doesn’t get it, he doesn’t get it, he doesn’t get it … then it all comes together and he’s better.

Mike Tyson clearly wasn’t prime when he fought James Tillis. Five months later he sure looked like it vs. Berbick, and in between he had some overmatched blowouts and not-prime (imo) wins over Mitch Green and Jose Ribalta.

 

This.

Also, back then, you could very well be facing a fighter whose style your team hasn't extensively studied or prepared for, so everything that you meet in the ring is a new hurdle to negotiate.

Often, and I speak anecdotally from sparring and especially grappling, once you are made to feel uncomfortable, challenged and even punished, you now know your own limitations clearer and can work on them, but are also able to solve the puzzles that you may not have tackled as efficiently the first time around.

Improvement, experience and definitely, like you said, "getting it" is not linear when it comes to athletic performance and boxing mastery, let alone an elite champion's mindset.

 

Do you then believe Tyson was in his prime against Tills?

 

I think he learned from the fights and was still developing in general, but perhaps more than anything became much more dialed in.

 

People learn and get better. They also gain confidence, which makes them more sure and less hesitant. Things you had to think about a month before can become instinctive once it all comes together and kicks in.

Progress is not always inch by inch and incremental. As I noted earlier, there are often leaps.

Marvin Hagler was immediately better after the Antuofermo fight because he ended up with a draw by being hesitant and, perhaps, holding too much in the gas tank because he hadn’t been 15 rounds before. From then on he was a machine. It wasn’t just the opponent — he destroyed Vito when they rematched.

Prime, of course, is not a precise and definable thing. One can look good in one fight, not so good next time out and great in the one after that. Heck, even if it were against the same opponent or one of a very similar style — the fighter sorts out what worked and what didn’t, tweaks the game plan, etc. And sometimes the punch that a guy couldn’t quite land right in 10 rounds in one fight gets through in the first round of the next fight and he looks better because he got the early edge (or early KO).

There’s also physical prime vs. overall prime, for lack of a better term. No doubt Mike Tyson was in his physical prime vs. Buster Douglas. He was young, hadn’t taken very much damage, confident (probably overly so) and basically a force of nature. But maybe he was off vs. Douglas or maybe Buster with that jab and formidable size and lack of fear and full of focus would have neutralized him regardless. We’ll never know. But he wasn’t pre-prime and he certainly wasn’t washed.

And then, of course, there’s a difference between peak and prime. A fighter’s peak is usually (key word there) a singular fight or short (again, usually) stretch of fights where he’s at his absolute best.

Ali was certainly not peak vs. Doug Jones. He was probably entering his physical prime but I don’t think everything had come together yet. But he was also facing a very wily opponent who probably also gave him problems stylistically. I seem to remember Angelo Dundee commenting later that he learned from that fight to never give away quickness (in other words, when possible don’t match your guy against a quicker guy … especially if your guy is a speed merchant himself). So there’s that as well.

 

Too green

 

Yes ... in Cooper I, he wasn't fully focused and was arguably going through motions, likely trying to meet his prefight prediction. After the fight, he seemed much more focused on the task at hand, yet, fighting up or down to the level of the fighter in front of him from time to time. Sometimes, it was cos he didn't respect the fighter in front of him relative to his own confidence in his abilities, just shipping punches, experimenting with landing his right counters ala Folley.

It's a gift and a curse - dialing down allows him to save his very best for the very best, but then getting hit or put in uncomfortable spots against lesser fighters gives his detractors ammunition that they use freely in hypothetical match ups, forgetting the performances against elite fighters when matched up against other elite fighters.