Was Ali in his Prime when he Fought Doug Jones ?

Fair enough. And prime is a relative concept. The way I use the word prime includes some sort of development during that period. Peak for me is the plateau.

I think Ali developed continually until he was stripped of his license, but I still draw the line at a moment where I think he entered his prime. And no matter where I draw that line you could say "what, so he wasn't in his prime just 11 months before?". At one point you have to draw the line.

These are my reasons for drawing it at Liston:

1. At 210 lbs his physical development was slowing down. He was actually at a lower weight for several of his defences, whereas he'd passed 200 lbs for the first time some 15 months before.

2. He'd made a clear step up in class for three of his kast four opponents and the last two had by far been his toughest tests yet.

3. Facing a monster like Liston for the richest prize in sport made him more focussed than he'd ever been before and he'd had a much more intense camp than ever before. I think the difference in sharpness and focus is quite clear to the eye. Not just for Liston, either, but for all his title fights,

The two fights against Cooper shows a very clear development I'd say, so somewhere in between I think it's fair to say he entered his prime. It could be later than the first Liston fight, but I have a hard time seeing that it would be earlier.

 

I don’t agree with your definition that a guy in his prime can’t learn something — and that if he does and gets better still that means he wasn’t in his prime yet.

Seems to me you’re talking more peak than prime.

I think Ali was a better fighter by Liston because he’s had to reach a little deeper inside vs. Jones to eke out a decision and against Cooper next time out to survive and savagely fight back to win (via cuts, but it instills confidence just the same).

There’s a reason wise people well versed in the sport say it’s 90% mental, and digging deep and finding a well of reserve improves that winning mentality. Battle-tested matters — that’s why sometimes guys who blow through their opposition easily on their way up don’t cut it when taken to task by an equal (or in some ways better) opponent … because they hadn’t gained that confidence of coming through and hadn’t had to dig deep before when the chips were down. (The flip side is some guys step up for a test on the way up and find they weren’t all that to begin with and never get as far.) Iron sharpens iron and all that.

 

This is very unpopular, but I think Ali's prime is somewhat overrated. Liston was 43 years old, and was hindered by inactivity and a shoulderproblem, Williams was 34 years old, had a limp, and a bullet in his body, and was shot. Folley was a 202 pound 34 years old foe (very small heavyweight), Cooper was 186 pound, 32 years old, London was a no talent, Chuvalo beat Ali's kidneys so hard, so Ali had to spend 2 weeks in a hospital, Patterson was a small, fragile heavyweight, totally broken by an old Liston, Ali had severe difficulties with small Midenberger. Terrel was a weak punching, tall scrawny 217 pound fighter... Ali is overrated, overrated.

 

Yes, focus and also confidence. MMA fighter Leon Edwards is a very clear example of the latter.

Btw, Jones was just 1,5 months after his previous fight, whereas he had 8 months between Cooper and Liston. By a wide margin the most time he'd ever had preparing for a fight.

 

I really don’t see what you’re talking about and I don’t think you’re reading what I’m saying.

He got better by beating Jones and Cooper BECAUSE of what he had to do to win those fights. You learn from being in with veterans (Jones had 25 fights but had an accelerated learning curve because he, himself, had been in tough with veterans) and you learn about yourself (and gain mental confidence, probably mental stamina and that focus you mentioned in another post) by being in with people who can push you.

I think he emerged from those fights better than he was before. If he’d have fought other fighters, who knows, maybe he’d have still learned (there’s also coaching, sparring, training camp repetition, maturity, week after week of being a pro and doing a thing full-time as opposed to transitioning from amateur to pro) and gotten better but I don’t think he’d have taken the leaps by Liston without those type fights. He was more seasoned and more tested.

Does he beat Liston anyway? Maybe his reflexes alone would have been enough or maybe not. Maybe Liston catches him the way Cooper did and finishes the job. Perhaps he doesn’t have the wits to get through that round with Sonny when he was blinded had he not survived Cooper, or doesn’t come back from it as well had he not already done it and gained the confidence that one tough round doesn’t have to carry over to the next, that one can reseize the momentum. Someone else mentioned him growing into his body as a full-blown heavyweight and that figures into it too.

I honestly don’t know what you’re looking for. Prime isn’t something that one can timestamp to a particular second in life — well if Ali’s prime was against Jones or against Sonny, was he not prime 10 seconds before? Surely you understand this. Heck, you can step on a scale every day of your life and say, ‘Wednesday, Nov. 10, 1980-whatever at 10 a.m. was the first time I weighed 200 pounds in my entire life’ … and I can say, ‘Well if you had stepped on the scale at 9:59 would you not have weighed 200?’

So what exactly is your question or opinion? That there’s no such thing as prime? I guess that’s arguable, but I think Evander Holyfield was better after Qawi than he was before (see the rematch) because he learned a heck of a lot from that test. But maybe prime is undefinable at least with the precision you seem to want someone to nail it down to … but we can see fighters get better, reach a certain period in which they are at their best, and then see decline. So there’s something there.

As for focus, I think that’s covered in the mental part that I addressed. Focus is literally mental. But a fighter’s focus can shift from laser-sharp to a little less so from fight to fight, round to round, minute to minute. We’ve seen fighters lose focus in a fight (in their prime no less) and get caught by a haymaker. So where does that leave us?

 

Nah.. he was still green

 

That's it. At that stage of his career,Muhammad was improving at a rapid pace.

 

So Ali was just less focused against Jones? I don’t think so.

Sure, styles make fights. And Jones had a style that was troubling for Ali at the time he fought him. As was Cooper the FIRST time that he fought him. But as he got into his prime, he caved up Henry in a rematch and I think he’d have coasted against Jones.

I’m sure Evander was probably well-focused for his pro debut, but he was a better fighter by the time he fought Michael Dokes.

 

Look at the weight.
Ali when he fought Jones was at 202 lbs. He was still maturing physically.
When he fought Liston , he was at 210, and still gaining weight.
He probably wasn't at his physical prime until the Cleveland Williams fight.
Look at the pictures of him.
He really filled out. In the Jones fight, he could be mistaken for a Lt.heavy.
By the time he fought Liston and beyond, he looked like a heavyweight.