Was Ali in his Prime when he Fought Doug Jones ?

Pressure fighters and reflex fighters age the fastest.

 

Freddy - Do you think Ali plateaued by ‘67 or was there even more improvement to come?

Even if plateaued, one could still perhaps project for 2-3 years fighting at the highest level - the level attained and witnessed before exile.

One caveat for me is Ali’s absolute peak leg mobility - unique, extravagant and all so important.

Separate to other attributes, I think that would’ve been the first to go, exile or not.

That leg speed and mobility would’ve been a lot harder to maintain (with absolute peak stamina required also) at the highest level than other given attributes.

I feel we saw the best of that mobility before Ali was banned and, perhaps, we might’ve seen some measure of downturn in that mobility anyway during 67 -70 even if Ali had boxed through.

Overall, some fighters might be afforded their absolute overall peak at say age 28 - but what 60s Ali was doing with his legs was something else again - sublime - and there’s only way from sublime - and that’s down.

 

11 months was still a lot of time for Ali or Clay at the time to learn. Almost a year. I think style wise Marciano was a little green when he face Louis in 51, but was the complete fighter that he was going to be once he ko Walcott for the title a year later.

 

Very few athletes are prime at 21.

 

Really good thoughts - thanks.

Given the level he was already at I am not sure how much scope for improvement there could realistically have been. Like you suggested I think that what we would have seen is more fights with him operating at that level of physical peak over that period. I think what we might have also seen is the extra experience he would have gained coupled with that physical peak would have made him an even more capable fighter. Impossible to know. However, it also begs the question would he have been able to maintain the dedication required to maintain that form? Especially with all the added influences, distractions and pulls on his focus.

I do agree it's more than likely that there would have been some kind of deterioration in those skills (mobility) during that period. It's fair to think that those would likely be the first to show the signs of diminishing (to whatever degree). Ageing as well as the wear and tear effect of a series of fights too. An unanswerable question is how would his fighting changed if he had been active during this period and recognised his changing abilities as well as his ability to absorb punishment?

 

Muhammad Ali was 6'3" .He could comfortably carry a lot more than 201 pounds. He weighed 216 1/2 for the Rumble and 224 1/2 in the Thrillla and didn't look fat.

 

With the greatest of respect, I think the concept you've struggled with in this thread Vic, is that you've treated being in or out of prime, as binary, i.e. your posts suggest you feel a boxer is either in their prime or not and their must be a big difference between those two absolutes.

This is a bit of an obscure analogy to draw in attempt to get you to think of things a little differently, but it's a similar concept to falling in love. You don't go from not being in love with someone one second to being in love with them the next, at least not in my experience. It's a gradual process. There comes a point along that process where you first feel it appropriate to say "I love you". By definition, there's a first time you've said that to anyone you've ever said it to, but in most cases you didn't change from not loving them, to loving them, in that split second.

Similarly, a fighter doesn't go from being green one fight to absolutely peak the next, however, if you're asked to define when a fighter's prime started, you have to chose a point in their evolution when you felt they were close enough to their peak to begin to being considered prime. Just like there's a time when you first say "I love you" to your partner, it's a judgement call along that evolution, not a reflection of a sudden acceleration in how things have progressed.

I consider the Williams, Terrell & Foley fights to be Ali at his very peak, as I suspect most do. He was better by late 1966/1967 than he was when he fought Liston in 64 & 65, and better when he fought Liston than he was when he fought Jones & Cooper in 63. At what point he was close enough to his 1966/67 peak to consider him prime is a judgement call down to the individual, and has as much to do with their interpretation of the term "prime" as it does to their analysis of the fighter's evolution.

Liston II was too short a fight for an in-depth analysis of Ali's evolution towards/in his prime, but one thing I've always found notable, is despite being 4.5lbs lighter, he looked bigger, relative to Liston, than he did for in their first fight. Bigger and more mature in build, firmer, more chiselled. He appeared to have filled out into a man.

Admittedly this is a somewhat rudimentary basis of analysis, but nevertheless, for the above reason, my guess is that he entered his physical prime somewhere between Liston 1 & Liston 2. Allied with the experience gained vs Jones, Cooper & Liston 1, plus the training & sparring between Jones & Liston 2, means Liston 2 is roughly when I consider his prime began.

 

A properly motivated 67-74 Ali would have easily defeated Doug Jones.

 

Hard to know for sure. When they met again in '66 Ali treated him as a junior sparring partner, but of course by that time Jones was declined, so hard to know what was what exactly.

Maybe Cooper is more illuminating, and in that case I think there is a clear improvement on Ali's part but it's also clear that Cooper still was relatively tricky for him. Maybe Jones would have been similar if he had stayed at the same level.

 

Excellent post and I like the falling in love analogy!

 

I think Jones was a decent fighter who performed well versus Ali.

I believe Ali was sufficiently short of his peak, to be considered not yet prime vs Jones, based on my interpretation of the term "prime".

The above two sentences are not mutually exclusive.

The Ali that fought Williams or Folley would have surely been more dominant vs the version of Doug Jones he fought, but that doesn't mean Jones didn't fight well vs Ali, indeed, he did.

 

I'd say the moves are quite similar but faster and sharper. Same compared to Cooper 1. He's just sharper, manages distance better. Is more switched on in short.

Retreating straight back was often a trap he set to pull and counter, but it required speed and timing and I just don't think either were the same against Jones and Cooper (first fight).

In the Liston rematch I think he took another step, actually made technical adjustments that I don't see in the same way between Jones and Liston 1. Liston 2 seems to me like the first time he has his trademark style more or less fully developed, so I think that's a pretty good estimation for the start of his prime as well.