Wlad Klitschko Versus Joe Frazier

Could you stop with the pedantic "not a sound argument" dramatic flourish? Tis cringy, especially when you don't seem to hold that same standard for some of the nonsensical pro-Frazier arguments in this thread.

Case and point on the pedantry. Sorry I didn't do my FPS analysis of Wlad's arm extension speed V every other super heavyweights arm extension speed to irrefutably objectively conclude that Wlad has the fastest hands of any super heavyweight (pre-empting your "strawman fallacy, not a sound argument" response lol).

What do you consider reasonable argumentation for discussing hand speed outside of eye test and testimony? They're not very many 6'5, 240lbs fighters and of all those i've seen Wlad's hands seem noticeably fast, even quicker than Fury's, who is noted for his p4p speed. Who do YOU think has the fastest hands out of the superheavyweights? You seem to shoot down my assertions a lot but don't offer many suggestions.

What do YOU think is the magical number of punches per round that you think would constitute to be a considerable work-rate for Wlad? Another suggestion you shoot down without providing an alternative yourself. He went undefeated for over a decade throwing circa 40 punches per round whilst also constantly using his strength to clinch, nullify and wear down his opponents yet apparently this doesn't amount to being "fine" enough to fight Frazier.

 

This^ is one of the weirdest examples of projection I have seen on here in a while.

Save for you confirming that what I quoted from your posts is the actual extent of your argument for Wlad, everything else above seems to be you demonstrating how to miss the point.

Perhaps you should just go back to the original set of questions I asked you and start again there (if you can be bothered).

Or don't. It's up to you.

But I see no reason to continue a discussion based on the splinters from a broader observation I made, in response to your complaints about "low quality arguments" for Frazier (Which is kinda funny in itself, given that you haven't really made much of a case for Wlad either).

 

Joe Bugner gets his missus to make breakfast because he struggles to crack the eggs open.

 

Much larger and stronger guys on average than Bonavena and Chuvalo fought, that's who.

 

Is that a rhetorical question, or are you actually asking for examples of smaller fighters beating bigger fighters.

 

Isn’t every fighter with similar height and reach the same in your view? I mean, how else would you compare Alex leapai to Frazier?

 

Be specific.

 

Commenters - Prime Wlad loses to Prime Frazier because a Pre-Prime Wlad lost to Ross Purity in 1998. If Wlad gets body punched he crumbles into dust and Wlad's punching power is irrelevant unless Frazier is hospitalized or dies.

Me - Those are silly arguments, I can't be bothered to write out a long response to arguments like that.

You - "Can't be bothered" to address what is, "not a sound argument"? Funny, seems you "can't be bothered" to make a good argument yourself . Am I going to demand the same standard of evidence from the pro-Frazier component of this thread as I am from you? No. Am I going to make my own argument? No. But I will continue to act like your stated reluctance to make long responses to arguments such as "Wlad gets body punched and crumbles TKO 5" is some sort of unreasonable hypocrisy and snobbish condescension on your part. Perhaps you should just go back to the original set of questions I asked you and start again there buddy, if you can "be bothered"

Me - You're being obnoxious and cringe.

You - Not at all, you're just projecting.



It's funny because like I said, I don't even think Frazier winning is unreasonable. Claude has been making some good arguments / counter arguments in favour of this.

Also I just re-read your original response. You say "can you provide evidence of [Wlad's] punch variety, outside of his jab, right cross and left hook", as if jabs, a right cross and a left hook doesn't count as punch variety? You then sarcastically asked for evidence of things I never even argued Klitchko could do / things that are part of Frazier's fighting style...why?

If I was to be that dismissive in regards to Joe Frazier, i'd say "can you provide evidence of Joe Frazier's punch variety outside of his left hook, left uppercut and right uppercut? Could you provide evidence of Joe Frazier's jab, which he only threw 53 times across 15 rounds in FOTC, outside fighting and clinching / spoiling ability?", which wouldn't make much sense, because that's not his style.

No his handspeed was not "Ali like", not that I ever implied that. Wlad's handspeed was best showcased when he was throwing single shots or during his patented 1-2's. He showed good speed with this single hand combinations as well, but his two handed combos weren't all that fluid.

This is a good example of prime Wlad's handspeed at 16:32, with a leaping left hook into a triple hook to KO Ray Austin.

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Another example of his handspeed at 51:30 in his KO of Tony Thompson.

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Another, lightning fast left hook of Mormeck at 13:40.

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I JUST saw a clip of Klitschko pentuple left hooking someone like 10 minutes ago but I can't seem to find it again, will look for it in an edit.

And re punch variety, Wlad would use the Foreman-esque tactic of wacking his opponent in the head with his forearms after some grappling and could incorporate right hooks and uppercuts into his combo's during his flurries. Will try and find some clips of this also.

 

There's every chance Manny has him jump on Frazier who is a slow starter. At any rate if Frazier has success getting under the jab and pressuring then Wlad's going to mix in some hard leather. Why would he not.

There's loads of guys who could take high volume but juice that power up two levels and it was an entirely different story. Norton was one of them and so was Trevor Berbick. From the looks of the Foreman fight comparative to the Ali fights it's fair to throw Frazier in there, whether he keeps getting up or not.

Norton took his share of shots from both. It took very few blows from genuine punchers to have him reeling tho.

Your list was rubbish. Punchers are guys like Liston, Tyson, Lewis, Ruddock, Louis, Foreman, Wilder et al. It was embarrassing to read the name Machen and the others excepting Foreman ain't bonafide punchers either. Stoppage percentages aren't going to fool anyone in here. When your reaching that hard you're on the wrong side of the ledger.

 

The point is very simple. Small fighters don't have the reach to take the fight to Klitschko. Guys with no jab are up **** creek against Klitschko. Guys with slow feet are in trouble against Klitschko.

The reason for this is because Wlad absolutely maximizes his length. He uses a very long jab to stitch up guys on the outside and favours straight shots because they are faster and longer. Hookers like Frazier increase their power at the expense of range by crooking their shots and twisting their bodies into it. That's well and good ASSUMING that they are in range to land those shots. Wlad uses the EE way of creating space in order to muffle an attack and it works especially well for him because of his outrageous dimensions. Frazier's task isn't knocking him out, its getting past the jab and landing anything at all before Wlad smothers him completely.

Leapai exemplifies this. He tries to use head movement, he tries to use body sway but Wlad tags him anyway. He tries to close the distance but Wlad's light feet mean that he's out of range constantly. Leapai tries to explode on Wlad but likewise fails as Wlad is either out of range or parrying his looping shots. He's simply too ****ing small. And when Wlad starts timing him coming in you can see that those shots shake him down to his boots. Leapai had that polynesian toughness. He soaked it up for a while but the result was inevitable in the end.

I see nothing in Frazier that makes me think that he's got the magic sauce to somehow transcend the problem of basic physics that Wlad sets for him.

 

There's every chance Manny might want Wlad to do that but the likelihood is that Wlad would not. Remember Steward pleading beyond measure with Wlad to let his hands go against Ibragimov; against Chambers?

There are multiple occasions on which Wlad just stuck to the formula, no matter Manny's instructions.

From the perspective of raw power, I don't believe it unreasonable to question the ability of Frazier to withstand the power of Wlad. However, when it comes to power there's a tendency to conflate this with the level of 'offensive threat'. That is, regardless of power, Wlad is not the offensive threat of Foreman.

I'm not saying that this is what you are necessarily asserting, but it does appear that the idea of Wlad bouncing Frazier around the ring, a la Foreman, is something you quite readily entertain. But, I would suggest it is quite the fantastic outlook here.

We're talking about a guy who would rather stink his way through a paint-drying spectacle for a decision win, than take a risk.

In essence, Foreman delivered his power in ways Wlad did not. Though, I'd be happy to review any Foreman-esque performance from Wlad, should anybody know of one.

 

Uppercuts? Like this one?

https://s02.yapfiles.ru/files/709646/Wladimir_Klitschko_vs_Alexander_Povetkin_4.gif

Do you think thats the punch he would knock Frazier out with?

Look here.

https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/imported_assets/2167469/timed_right_hand.gif

3 missed punches against a glacial slow walking punch bag , two jabs and a right. The bear hug attack always lands though.

 

Possibly.

What i can see, is Wlad hurting Frazier with a single blow and then following up. It's hardly unreasonable to think Wlad can hurt him with a single blow when Joe Bugner did, of all people.

That Foreman-esque Wlad performance could be iced with footage of Frazier handling 6'6 240+ pound guys with one punch power.

If you had to stake everything you own on this one, who would you honestly choose? I think a number of people that pick Frazier with nothing at stake would change their tune with high stakes on the line.

At any rate i'm already all Wlad'ed out, he bores me and i have little interest debating him aside from the road i was already on. I'd still favor him over Joe tho without counting Frazier out.

 

I was thinking this myself. Frazier would have to deliver the perfect fight together with Shannon Briggs as referee to beat Wlad. Wlad on the other hand simply has to deliver his usual performance against the type of fighter that he basically always beat.

 

I think Wlad either wins pretty easily or he shits himself and gets disqualified for holding (like he should’ve done against Povetkin) depends what version of him shows up