George Foreman ‘73 vs. James J. Jeffries ‘03

Jeffries finished the first Fitz fight with his face cut in two places , his nose bleeding heavily ,with blood freely flowing down his face.
If Jeffries had picked up all this science from Fitz,[and it is only apparent from him beating a thoroughly washed up Corbett,] how come he is described in the 2 nd Fitz fight as being," hit at will ,"by his near 40 years old opponent?

 

The highest humidity I’ve experienced was in Bali I think (travel there is a rite of passage for us Aussies - as a non-bogan, I behaved myself though ). It’s hot and humid enough in Oz in the summer anyway - shorts and singlet are must attire short of tearing your skin off - several weeks back we had a lovely, protracted run of 40 + c days.

On the day, in Havana it was also supposed to be that much hotter again in the ring. I don’t know how they endured it for near 26 rounds.

Totally agree re Johnson’s performance against Willard - I piece meal together what Johnson did in his different fights (as per available films) and believe he easily could’ve put it all together in the one fight as and when necessary.

Most of the time we only see him literally going half throttle in any given fight with some random spikes - but in Havana, given the context you outlined, we saw him have to try that much harder at times - availing us of stunning vision such as when he punched the huge Willard across the ring via still fast, hard and accurate multi punch combinations.

Though 34 himself, Willard didn’t have any where near the normally associated, career wear/tear - and he was perfectly conditioned for the primary purpose of soaking the punishment and ultimately outlasting Jack - though Willard’s right hand was a nice finisher, - but the end was already clearly nigh for Jack.

I love the old timers but do not wear rose tinted glasses when addressing them - even so, I have always held that Johnson, in all objectivity and due analysis was one helluva fighter -

 

I don't understand this guys arguments at all. Jeff outliving Ali isn't proof he had good defense whatsoever. Scar tissue, stitches, cauliflower ears, flattened/broken noses, etc are all very strong and telling indicators someone didn't have particularly great defense.

By his logic Tex Cobb must have had great defense since he's currently 73. There are several factors that go into why a boxer may live a long life even if they didn't have great defense. If Mayweather became an alcoholic and gorged himself on junk food over the next 10 years, there's a very strong possibility he doesn't even make it to 60 despite having phenomenal defense in his career. There are also genetic/biological factors that some people have no control over.

But I think the main issue here is some people are simply incapable of being objective and honest when it comes to certain boxers. Let's look at Jeff's fight with Sharkey:

Source: https://medium.com/@kennethbridgham/boxings-greatest-wars-part-i-the-blast-furnace-2fce693cc923

"Known for his ability to deliver and endure punishment, Jeffries was a muscular slugger who fought out of a unique crouch, his left hand extended out before him."

Right off the bat, the author highlighted Jeff's best qualities. He takes note of the fact Jeff was known for being able to deliver and endure punishment. A defensive boxer is never described this way. Nobody who actually watched Floyd Mayweather fight would say his best qualities were his ability to dish out and take punishment.

"The second Jeffries-Sharkey battle was scheduled for twenty-five rounds and would supersede even the original for brutality."

Not only is the article taking note that this match was "brutal", it is informing the reader that the previous Jeff/Sharkey fight was also brutal. Doesn't seem to be talking about two careful chess masters putting on a master class does it...?

"Sharkey’s weapon of choice was the left hook, and he connected several of these to Jeffries’s head in the opening frame"

Since when do boxers with good defense get tagged by the same punch multiple times at the start of a match?

"As the fighters mauled away at center ring, a headbutt opened a gash on the champion’s forehead; another chipped a tooth. Sharkey’s right ear had swollen to grotesque proportions; “a big wet sponge,” was how Jeffries later described it. Both fighters were bloodied, blistered, and bruised."

Again, we need to be honest with ourselves. This is peak, champion Jim Jeffries and Sharkey, a mindless slugger, is having no issues landing blows since the start of the match and has Jeff "bloodied, blistered, and bruised" by round 8.

"Both men were exhausted and the fight devolved into pure caveman-like brawling, Jeffries clearly getting the better of it."

Do I even need to delve deep into this...?

I think we can simply end it here and dismiss any and all claims that Jeff had superb defense and ring IQ. He would not have the skill, game plan, or boxing ability to fight a cautious fight and drag Foreman into deep waters to take advantage of his superior stamina (literally his only advantage). It doesn't matter how tough you are or how great your endurance if you have leaky defense, your opponent is larger, hits harder, and has better fundamentals and skill.

 

It'll be more of a surprise if Foreman made it to the 10th when taking his lack of stamina and gradually diminishing power into account. Imo Foreman either wins early or doesn't win at all.

 

Well the health of fighter after fighting is a great indicator of how much damage they took during the course of their career. And Jeffries lived in a less technologically developed age so any illness he would've came down with would've had a smaller chance of being ameliorated. You think Ali's Parkinson's or Frazier's numerous health issues had nothing to do with fighting? You focus on the surface, what about the effects of boxing on one's immune system or ones brain? Is that irrelevant?
The HW with the best defense imo was Schmeling and he lived until he was 99 years old.
Jeffries injured his left in the second Sharkey fight and beat him with his right which was his weaker hand. How many fighters fight for 20 rounds with one good arm?
Why don't you ask O Vey and Piggy to provide you with some 'primary sources'.
I never said Jeffries had 'superb defense', I never used a superlative to describe his defense. I said it was good.
Jeffries was heavier than Foreman. Foreman at his peak wasn't that much heavier than Ali.
It's wildly debatable that Foreman had better fundamentals and skill or even good fundamentals and skills. He did have some intelligence but objectively speaking he wasn't skilful. Have you ever watched a George Foreman fight?
One thing is for certain Jeffries isn't going to quit if things don't go his way.

 

Corbett said that he was as good as he ever was the night Jeffries beat him. Didn't you find that in your 'sources'?

 

Could Would Should but he id not...............so the myth was created he "carried" him for 15............absurd, I could see maybe two but not 15 rounds , maybe shot Jeffries was not the bum he is portrait as

Yes or no question, black and white, did Lewis carry the Tyson impersonator.? Similar circumstances the absolute top Heavy vs a expired shell.

 

There are only two outcomes, Foreman blitzes him early or Jeffries takes him out late.

 

No one said he would quit.

I don't give a damn about how well Jeff aged, that is not a valid argument about a fighter's defensive capabilities.

Now address the rest of my post where Jeff is described as a "caveman" and a "brawler" who was getting hit multiple times by the same punch in the first round and was covered in blood.

 

It isn't an absurd idea at all Johnson carried him. Jeff was completely washed up, and Johnson was infamous for dragging fights out on purpose to humiliate the opponent using a cautious defensive style.

 

The referee of Jeffries-Fitzsimmons 1 believed Jeffries had the better of the match for the last 7 rounds (from round 4 and on, and outside of the third round it appears that the fight was even, so this is a vastly different fight than the second fight which was described as a slaughter from Fitzsimmons' perspective), and I also doubt Corbett and Fitzsimmons were really over the hill for their fights with Jeffries. Fitz had other impressive performances against solid competition well into his 40s.

With regard to Corbett II, Corbett did seem to have a good few rounds near the end. Every description I've seen of the fight does say Corbett had a resurgence around rounds 8-9, and Jeffries himself said that he was impressed by Corbett in the match as well. However despite this, it seems like Jeffries was having his way with Corbett regardless. It doesn't seem like Corbett slipped as much as Jeffries' technique had improved between '02 and '03 when he started training with Fitzsimmons. It also does seem like Corbett's plan in the second fight was similar to his plan in the first fight, until he got hit in the body in that second round.

Many other contemporary reporters, even prior to Jeffries' fights with Fitzsimmons, were quick to label Jeffries as more defensively minded:

“The boilermaker has been practicing defensive tactics more than attack, and believes that he can keep Fitz off. The latter is expected to force the fight from the start. In such an event it is believed that Jeffries will stand away and try to jab his block off.”

New York Sun

“Jeffries is really a clever boxer and knows how to protect himself in a manner that will make Fitz wonder how to reach him with a damaging blow.”

National Police Gazette

“He feints savagely and with startling speed. His feet have improved until now he moves about like a shifty lightweight. His footwork resembles both Corbett’s and Ryan’s. He shifts about continually, is not obliged to set before he hits, and will never be caught flat footed.”

And judging from the sparring footage of Jeffries where he displays pretty good defense (albeit against less than stellar oppoentn), is it really as hyperbole as you'd think to see Jeffries as being defensively competent in a few of his fights? It was certainly an observation made at the time, and not just by a random Jeffries propagandist either.

 

The second Fitz fight was only 8 rounds. So there was no 'fatiguing in the later rounds' as you suggest. Fitz simply got pulverized in the 7th and 8th rounds.
Fitz went on the win the LHW title 7 fights later against George Gardiner in a 20-round fight. How could he do that if he was washed.
Also if you read the account of the Corbett fight you would know that though Corbett was winning the fight Jeffries gradually closed in on him and chased him out of the ring. Jeffries was still fighting at a terrific pace in the 18th round and by the 20th Corbett was scurrying to get away from him. Jeffries isn't described to have had anything more than a little swelling under his left eye, he didn't take much of a beating.
He won his first bouts against both without any considerable trouble but I guess you're not going to even acknowledge.
Jeffries knocked both Fitzsimmons and Corbett down 12 times in his 4 bouts with them. Neither of them knocked him down once.

 

You don't think that fighters that get hit less cleanly or less often live longer?
I already did. I said that Jeffries injured his left in that fight and was forced to brawl in that manner.

 

On a side note some Prime Foreman anecdotes

Is Jeffries team going to loose the ropes so Jeff can rope a dope....

Is Foreman's water poisoned....

Is Jeffries calling him a chump......

Is Foreman allowed to bring his favorite German shepherd....

Foreman poison again, my team poisoned me.....

Foreman was served tainted food....

Foreman's team dried him out too much.....

Is the crowd shouting "Jeffries Kumbaya " ?

 

I think that's because Fitzsimmons was likely the best influence on Jeffries' career, speaking from a technical standpoint.

Fitz's strategy in their second fight was definitely the smartest way to deal with a crouching, reactive fighter like Jeffries. Force him to come out of that crouch he depends on and come forward on the front foot, and make him fight your fight. I could only imagine Jeffries trying to make wide open, desperate leads from outside his comfort zone on the aggressive, as Fitzsimmons batters him with counters while on his backfoot.

However, Fitzsimmons appeared adamant on 'fixing' Jeffries after their second fight;

“I will either defeat Jeffries or make him into the greatest fighter the world has ever seen.”

Judging from the contemporary reports of that second Corbett fight, it does seem like Jeffries had greatly improved from his previous performances. I doubt Corbett was washed, seeing as many (including Jeffries himself) remarked that Corbett had some impressive rounds during the fight and even appeared to have gotten some of his old spark back in rounds 8 and 9. Corbett also did seem to maintain respectable speed and physique in the footage we have of him training in his his latter years.