Who Was Not A Great Fighter?

Vitali and Lomachenko. Vitali is 0-2 against his 2 best opponents and dominated over a very weak bunch of ranked men, yet some make him out to be as great as his brother, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Lomachenko's resume also leaves a lot to be desired. If your best wins are Linares and a blown up and older Rigondeaux, then we've got a problem.

 

I dare someone to say Carlos Monzon.

From the little I have seen of him, I cannot see the fuss with Ketchel. But, largely, this thread belongs to the heavies for e who have greatness bestowed very quickly. Tyson had it bestowed on him as a teenager. He was a great teenager but didn't become a great fighter until after that. Some will make the case he never did.

The stats and the longevity don't lie but I think both Klitschos are ordinary when I watch them. Tyson Fury is another obvious one. In fact, any heavy since Lewis who is described as being great should feature on this thread.

Going back, if you made a case that Rocky Marciano benefited from being in a weak era where his best opponents were smaller and shopworn, I'd hear you out. If you said Dempsey's reign was filled with light heavies and unskilled big men and, given its duration, contains nowhere near the depth of quality that a great should be racking up, I'm hearing you. But I think both Rocky and Jack had intangible greatness that transcended resumes.

Max Baer, Jack Sharkey, Jersey Joe, Ken Norton are all borderline greats. For me, move the bar ahead of them to preserve the value of being called great.

 

Here is a vote for Gene Tunney, at least at Heavyweight, with a kneel for my late Grandfather.

 

I count anyone with a world title win as a great one because they had to have at least one moment of greatness to be a champion.

So basically even Francisco Quiroz, who managed a world title despite a record of 10-15, was once a great one using that parameter. (he was 2-1 in world title fights,actually)

There are, however, levels of greatness. Quiroz wasnt nowhere near as great as Victor Callejas, who wasnt near as great as Pipino Cuevas, who wasnt....Manny Pacquiao....Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson....Muhammad Ali. You get the drift.

A variation of this is the all time greats who did not get a title shot or failed when they did, be it because of their color, promoter or because they got robbed or fought a champion who was impossible to beat and so you have Tyrone Crawley and Tyrone Everett and Wilfredo Rivera as well as Harry Wills, Holman Williams, Charley Burley, Pedro Montanez, Billy Petrolle, Mario Martinez etc.

So who wasnt great to me? Hard to say, but among greats, Quiroz, Eleoncio Mercedes, Ossie Ocasio, boxers like that do not strike me as hall of Fame worthy...

Neither does Rafael Lovera who got his world title try for the WBC world Flyweight title in his only fight, for example...and he is definitely not a great one by any measures in my book.

Alfredo Evangelista was good but not really great....

it depends I guess but i say if you won a world title fight at least you had one night of greatness and that counts as a great one sort of like the MLB player who only played one game in his career or the NBA player and so on. But there are levels of greatness if you reached it.

 

I understand you mean boxers we consider they actually were not great at their trade, or at least not as great as it is claimed, regardless what the records, the media hype and their fans say.

Well, Wlad and Vitali are in that category. Tyson Fury too. Canelo is in that category too.

The case of Wlad is particularly interesting.

Sure he has an impressive record, with a very long dominance period. But his massive physical advantages and shenaningans put me off. Clinching and holding his way to the ATG. Boring safety-first style. Weak chin. Knocked out/Knocked down many times. Some suspect defeats to journeymans he never avenged. Dominated a mediocre era. All that put an asterisk in his resume.

Anyway, Wlad probably still qualifies as an ATG all right, but still a minor or marginal one.
For me he is not a great boxer and doesn't crack the top 10 in my HW list.

 

Controversial ones possibly but.....

Aaron Pryor
Kostya Tszyu
Virgil Hill
Dariusz Michalczweski

I consider these to be very good not greats although i guess they could be classed as lower tier greats and maybe i'm being harsh.

 

Ken Norton is IMO the best example so far. Norton needed one more win over: Ali, Frazier, Foreman, or Holmes to become ATG.

 

For what it's worth, I would put my signature under that list also, although I never heard the latter two referred to as Great.

To add one more, I believe Joe Calzaghe was also very good rather than great.

 

2nd most Dominant HW of all time, and Canelo a 4 weight division world champion, one time undisputed. Hmmmm..... clearly not done every day is it.

 

That's a big ask of a guy who was blown out by Shaver's and Cooney, who were a tier below the best.

 

Hamed, end thread.

 

Can't argue with that

 

Terry Norris and Hector Camacho falls short from ATG status IMO.