Ali's power was clearly underrated

In the Norton doco that I linked on another thread, Norton said that while not devastating, Ali was still a good hitter.

Norton’s appraisals in general were very intelligent and honest.

He noted that Ali was faster but that he (Ken) hit harder - in some ways, I think Norton’s own power might be a bit underrated.

When Ken built up a head of steam, like his stablemate Frazier, he could really get some terrific leverage and wicked power behind his shots. Albeit stilted, he was slowly warming to the task vs Foreman but of course, after receiving a few power hits, Ken was sent on his slippery slope.

Imo, Norton consistently hurt Ali through all 3 of their fights - and we know Ali had top whiskers - so no mean feat on Ken’s part. A chin any less than Ali’s wouldn’t have stood up to it.

Ken also laid some serious leather on Holmes who upheld his own terrific chin in their fight.

 

I agree. I've always wondered how the Norton version of Foreman would've held up against Shavers, and Cooney. Many think it would be the same result. I'm not so sure. Norton actually had a plan against Foreman and actually stood up against some decent shots in that first round. Shavers and Cooney were far inferior punchers and fighters than Foreman so I can't see that version Norton going out in the first against them.

 

Agreed.

One thing I feel safe in saying, if you couldn’t get Norton out of there, you were likely in for a good measure of hell.

He caught Foreman with some solid jabs and a very nice, head snapping uppercut also during the brief time the fight lasted. A few more rounds Ken might’ve become that much more relaxed - but he wasn’t going to get that from Foreman.

Speculation of course, but I detected Foreman’s eye narrow upon receipt of such shots - as if to say - “okay, better step on it and get this guy out quick”.

It’s rarely highlighted but George flagrantly fouled Ken after the ref got between them - an absolute free swing with the left that wrenched Ken’s head upward.

George def. wanted Norton out ASAP - hit him whenever and wherever possible, but Ken took that punch without falling and it was a particularly hard shot while Ken wasn’t ready for it with his hands completely down.

The follow up KO shots were monstrous - though Ken was in la la land he wasn’t literally out and still proudly clawed his way to his feet before the ref hit “10” (I believe, in so far as the count is concerned).

So many others would’ve been stretched, lying motionless after taking the punches Foreman laid on Norton.

I can’t divorce the fact that Foreman fought extremely well against Norton - very cool and calm at the start and working his jab beautifully to set up his other punches, exhibiting a bit more urgency in round 2.

Both Foreman and Shavers were ATG punchers - enough to be getting on with - but worse still for Norton, he arguably caught both men on their career best performances - or near enough to.

I understand that Shavers trained exceptionally hard for the long awaited Norton fight - 8 weeks intensive - and Earnie did appear to be in tremendous condition.

 

I think Sonny Liston answered this question when asked what went wrong ?? Sonny said " They told me that boy couldn't punch, They LIED!!!!!

 

I still believe that Ali’s performance in the first fight with Liston is one of, if not the, best performances of his career.

As and when, breaking from express mobility, the timing of his elections to sit down on his punches was perfect.

 

Well yes, Foreman is an ATG puncher and in the convo for the most powerful puncher in history. An average to quite good puncher isn't going to look remotely like him.

 

He had speed, good technique and good weight transference. You have those qualities and you're going to punch hard if you land. What Ali lacked was that raw strength to move guys with his shots so he wasn't likely to bludgeon and break you down, but if he landed on the sweet spot he could obviously knock a lot of fighters loopy. It was that same snappy sort of punch that Evander possessed, or I'm even tempted to say Louis, though with Louis his whole style was built around landing the most mechanically damaging punch possible at all times.

 

A couple points. I wouldn't call Shavers an ATG puncher. Yes he was likely the hardest puncher in history but still quite flawed, and couldn't put it to use at top level (with the exception of the round where he knocked down Holmes after hurting him earlier iirc) and sometimes not even journeyman level as seen against Stallings.

But yes, I think Norton was his best career performance. Norton was a sitting duck against the ropes. Shavers kept his punches, short, sweet, and accurate. Best performance I've seen from him.

 

Sure, contextually ATG puncher meant among the hardest punchers in history.

As to Earnie putting it to use at top level, I don’t think it was just down to skill disparity as a cause to his failing.

The top level also saw some notably superior chins and will - Cobb, Lyle, Ali, Holmes - they took some big shots from Shavers but they didn’t fold like a number of lower grade guys who comprised Earnie’s KO record.

I find Earnie’s 2 fights with Young interesting. Of course Jimmy was def. green as a pro first time but still slippery nonetheless I imagine.

Earnie KO’d Young in 3 first time around. That suggests Earnie could catch up with Jimmy and on that occasion, he did finish Young.

Second time around, with more experience under Young’s belt, Shavers still caught up to Young, securing a hard KD in round 4 IIRC.

Young survived the KD, the fight going the 10 round distance, called a draw but some (many?) believing Young won it.

Power puncher or not, at least half the battle was catching Young clean - and Shavers managed that - though, the KD in the 2nd match might’ve been from a body shot.

Anyway, this was not long before Young schooled Ron Lyle the first time in no uncertain terms - and of course Jimmy repeated the schooling in his second fight with Ron.

 

Yup Lyle bout was Young's next bout immediately after drawing with Shavers. Imo their's a very real argument Shavers, despite his loss to Lyle was the better h2h fighter between the two.

He did much better against Young in two tries than Lyle could in one.

Knocked out the number 3 rated (but admittedly fading) Ellis in a single round, while an (even more) faded Ellis went the distance with Lyle.

Then again Lyle went the distance with Quarry while Shavers himself was dispatched in a single round. Also Lyle would never in a million years lose to a Bob Stallings figure in his prime, as much as I find him overrated.