Does Cleveland Williams hit hard or really hard?

**** no I dont think Williams is a lock to beat any of those guys or even a favorite and all of those guys had better wins than Williams did. Some of them had SIGNIFICANTLY better wins. And claiming all of those men ducked Williams preventing him from climbing the rankings when he consistently failed to beat the best fighters he fought is pretty comical. When the two best rated opponents you beat are Alex Miteff and Billy Daniels (barely) I dont want to hear how guys a lot better than them ducked Williams. Dont give me that **** and dont go throwing that **** around without rock solid proof. Are you prepared to offer that up? No? Didnt think so. Its equally as likely that Williams was a limited guy who was steered away from tough fights because he couldnt win the big ones.

You can believe what you want but the entire purpose of having Liston-Westphal and Patterson-McNeeley on the same closed circuit card was to hype their match.

As for your question about what constitutes a historian I would venture that a start would be actually having an education and a degree in that field. Thats a start. It may come as a blow to a lot of your favorites but just declaring yourself a historian and writing a fanboy book wouldnt cut it in any peer reviewed field but we are talking about the sport of boxing where pretty much any moron with a subscription to Ring magazine can call himself a historian. Bert Sugar was a "boxing historian"... Nuff said.

 

None of which changes the fact that you were wrong to claim that Williams wasn't rated during Patterson's reign. It's also not true that Patterson was already signed to meet Liston when he fought McNeeley.

 

Best case scenario: This so called historian and ratings expert can't even get his facts straight.

 

For some one who has written a book you seem to have difficulty grasping the gist of others sentences,asking would they fight him is NOT the same as stating they ducked him,and I highlighted this in an earlier post.At no point did I say he was a lock to beat any of those I named
You've been dead wrong on three things so far.
Williams making a full recovery, which is risibly ridiculous.
Williams not being ranked when he demonstrably was.
The Patterson v Liston fight being a done deal when Patterson fought McNeeley on the double header with Liston when in fact the Liston defence was not signed for another 3 months!
I can only hope these proven mistakes on your part will not wound your colossal ego too much. In passing may I just add that in the 11 years you have been gracing us with your presence,I have never read a post of yours that was not accompanied with a sneering ,browbeating, egotistical condescending lecture about how the rest of us are merely fan boy non entities unworthy to receive your imparted wisdom.
It's quite refreshing to see that several posters appear to have mutually decided that,
"enough is enough",and given you what you have been begging for a considerable period of time, namely a dose of your own medicine!
In closing I have on several occasions seen your Harry Greb book described as,
" a paen of praise to Greb", and "a labor of love to the authors hero."
" a book full of statistics,but light on personal content".
I haven't read it and have no plans to do so,but if there is some truth to these reviews,wouldn't they qualify you yourself as,"a fan boy ?"

 

"theyd rather drool over big thweaty mens..."LOL !

 

Cleveland Williams gets over-mentioned here. Enough already. Ditto Tony Galento. Neither was especially important or significant.

 

As I suspected, you don't know the difference between a hard puncher and a GREAT puncher. You also can't get your ratings correct. Some "historian" you are.

Alex Miteff who was demolished by Williams, on fair scorecards, deserves to be 2-0 over Chuvalo..... who you claim is out of Williams league.

Manufacturing strawmen again I see. As I've said literally multiple times, literally not one person called him a great puncher. I'm embarrased having to explain this to a historian. A hard puncher is someone.... who hits hard. Hopefully this is easy enough to understand even for you (then again you also failed to see the sarcasm in my aforementioned post, when literally everyone and their grandmothers did). A GREAT puncher, is someone who can put their power to use consistently at world level. For example Mike Tyson may not have hit quite as hard as his opponent Ruddock, but he was an infinitely greater and more dangerous puncher.

I've literally never mentioned his "looks" once. The only person I see mentioning his physique on a consistent basis is you. Seems like projection to me.

Three more wins than Greb, who you worship despite having zero film of his fights.

He lost to three fighters, he was unable to beat (aside from Williams). Alonqi (who himself only lost twice, one of them being a brutal KO by Daniels) Patterson, Folley.

For a so called historian, you don't seem to know much about anything regarding Daniels Going into their first bout, Daniels had one loss.... to the greatest of all time. Prior to the rematch, Daniels had just upset the number one contender (WBA) Doug Jones. Following the rematch, it was widely accepted at the time that Daniels wasn't the same fighter due to the beating he sustained. "The big cat is credited with breaking one man's back with a blow to the midsection, [and] punishing Billy Daniels so badly that Daniels has never been the same fighter since".

Can you show me one post where I waxed poetic about his speed or is this just another one of your strawmen?

Oh yeah I forgot Lyle was a shell of himself at 38 years old, 8 years in his career, but a shot (literally) 38 year old Williams who'd been boxing for over 20 years gets no excuses. No double standards here.

In their first fight he beat him with scores of 97-92, 98-93, and 98-91..... and in the rematch won with a score of 100-89, and two scores of 100-88, never dropping a single round. What is your definition of Barely?

That miniscule success must've quite been something considering he got a draw, (majority draw actually. Third judge had Williams firmly ahead) out of it.

What am I misreading? "Williams the no. 5 contender felt he had turned in an upset. Most of the crowd of 10,000 partial perhaps to the hometown favorite and one judge agreed."

Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/48465177/the-news-review/

• "In a way he's tougher to fight than Liston because he has the speed the other doesn't have. You can't walk around Cleveland like you can Liston." -Eddie Machen

I also must've imagined seeing this photo of Williams nearly flooring Machen, coming a lot closer than Liston did to doing so. https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-fresno-bee/68996351/

"Nine years later, in the fall of 1969 when Williams was over the hill and trying to recapture some of his old magic, he seemed to stumble into a time warp and revisit the Liston fights against another hungry contender in former Marine, Mac Foster. In September of that year, Mac stopped Cleve in the fifth round in Fresno. In November the two men locked horns in another thriller and Foster knocked out Williams in the third at Houston.

That third round of the return match was rated the fifth best round of the year by The Ring magazine and described as “…. a thrill-packed session which began with Williams rushing out of his corner and attacking with a crisp left hook at close range. A sharp right hand buckled Foster’s knees. It seemed as if the Big Cat had regained his old power and was showing young Foster how it ought to be done.

“But Mac fought back with a vengeance. They slugged it out with lefts and rights, with Williams seemingly having an edge in the furious exchange. Foster shot a vicious left hook to the Big Cat’s jaw which floored him. After Cleve arose, another hook sent him back to the canvas. A few moments later, Foster landed a tremendous left hook to Williams’ jaw, then crashed a right and it was all over. Williams fell heavily to the floor.”

Source: http://archive.boxing.media/careful_with_that_cleaver_cleve.html

"Before the third round Williams was instructed by his corner that boxing was getting him nowhere and to use his only remaining weapon of substantial value—the left hook. At the bell he charged off his stool with a barrage of hooks and rights to the head and body and Foster was momentarily stunned—rather more than he likes to admit—by a hook that would have knocked out a lesser man."

Source: https://vault.si.com/vault/1970/01/05/the-fighting-marine-they-named-macarthur

You may've seen more of Williams than any of us but considering you; didn't know Williams dropped Daniels, (somehow) thought Williams barely won, didn't know when Williams garnered a rating, and consistently have accounts that contradict contemporary reports, I'm quite confident you don't know what the hell you're watching.

You also think Liston looked "scared" against Martin, when a blind man could see he was clearly fatigued, and fighting bravely despite suffering a busted nose. As I said, nearly every analysis of yours differs with contemporary reports, you've lied (either that, or you're not nearly as good a historian as you think you are) multiple times regarding key facts of Williams career, among other things so no offense but I don't trust your first hand accounts, and I certainly don't trust you. If you told me the sky was blue, I'd have to run outside and check.

 

Shavers KO 1Ken Norton was just 7 months after Nortons 15 round SD loss to Larry Holmes so was he on the way out when he fought Holmes to a SD?

Agramonte lost to Louis 2X but that was 1951 the same year Louis get destroyed by Marciano, so Louis was not exactly prime.

The point I brought out was that there is zero proof in the professional ring that Big Cat was an elite puncher.

Satterfield could hit but was KO'd many times not because he had a glass jaw but because he traded (that was his style) Satterfield stood 5"10 and weighed around 180 LBS. Yet Bob Satterfield walked through the 6"3 210 lb 35-1-1 Cleveland Williams and KO'd Big Cat in 3 rds. and that was in 1954 the same year Ezzard Charles KO'd Bob Satterfield in 2 rds. Also Satterfield KO'd the same Frankie Daniels in 1954 in 7 rds. that went the distance with Big Cat in 1957

Big Cat was full of muscles, and I remember his fights with Liston which were exciting but there is nothing in his professional record that would put him in any elite effective punchers list and if so, based on what?

 

It's good to see the lesser fighters recognised tho, far more of these guys than top shelf elites.

 

Are homoerotic undertones permeating the thread? I didn't notice.

And is your bedroom east facing? I didn't notice that either.

 

Haha - well, I believe those powerful undertones finally hit shore and dramatically reared up to the proportions of a Tsunami with the suggestion that someone “gobbles Williams’ knob”....

 

Very nice post Swag.

As to Liston looking “scared” - with blood gushing into his mouth, rendering him almost unable to breathe, I think that’s enough to explain why Liston might’ve appeared a bit distressed - a somewhat different proposition to being “scared”.

At any rate, taking a single frame from any footage, and purporting the frozen expression captured in a nano sec to mean anything is an absolute joke.

 

Can someone verify this - legit, well read, well visioned historians need only apply.

We know Liston gave Williams the nod as the hardest puncher. The full quote I’ve read several times is: -

“Williams was the hardest puncher I’ve fought. No one wants to fight him. He can punch as hard as I can but he can’t take it like I can.”

I’m not sure of the primary source evidence for this quote.

At any rate, if accurate, it not only attests to Williams power but the fact that he was avoided by many fighters.

Of course Liston himself was no stranger to the concept of avoidance and being a victim of the practice.

As to Williams acknowledged power during his career, this pre-fight article dates 4 June 1962 (re Williams vs Machen) makes the prevailing perception more than clear: -

https://newspaperarchive.winona.edu/?a=d&d=TWN19620604-01.2.164&e=-------en-20--1--txt-txIN-------

 

Plodding around the ring in a hug fest with Chuvalo?

Cleve must’ve at least been the “hardest hugger” then - squeezing hard enough to pop vessels and make Chuvalo bleed under both eyes barely after 2 rounds were fought - with more facial damage to come.

38 years old, post gun shot with a bullet still lodged in his gut and an impaired left leg.

He shouldn’t have been called “The Big Cat” - he should’ve gone by the name Cleveland “Lucky” Williams.

Despite ALL context, Cleve was obviously just the same as he ever was, same as he ever was...

 

Galento was a "Bum of the Month" to Joe Louis. Let's talk about some of the others for a change. The others were just as distinguished as Two-Ton Tony.