Joe Louis vs David Tua

Give me strength.

Louis had excellent defense.

His entire style was based around being able to avoid a punch with subtle movements.

This honestly isn't even close.

Yes Tua was down less times than Louis, but he was also down less times than Wille Pep and Pernell Whitaker.

Does that mean that his defense was comparable to theirs?

I am not sure that the two things can be entirely separated.

 

Next thing you know, if they haven’t done it already (and I didn’t see anything in a quick look in the archives), someone will have Tua beating Ali or Holmes. I don’t think he could beat Ken Norton.

 

You will either need to concede Louis had a weak chin or leaky defense to explain why he was down so many times.

 

No it doesn't, but the heavyweight division is significantly more dangerous give how many guys hit like a truck so it's very impressive to only have one knockdown and zero KO losses. Tua knows how to protect himself and survive. Tua didn't have fast feet, lighting reflexes, or superb upper body movement and ring IQ like Whitaker or Pep and fought on the front foot. Despite facing multiple big hitters such as Ike, Lewis, Rahman, etc, he remained on his feet. Tua wasn't just standing there getting blasted on the chin for 12 rounds soaking up damage with sheer durability like a barroom brawler.

Disagree Louis had "excellent" defense. It could be good when he bothered to use it, but he sometime left himself wide open. Aside from the fact Schmeling landed about 100 right hands, he was also clipped by guys such as Galento, Braddock, Baer, Walcott, etc. He got hit plenty.

You are either going to need to concede Louis had defense issue or that he had chin issues. You can't have both.

They are completely separate.

Killer instinct, as I already told you, is a fighter's tendency to be vicious and go for the kill when they see an opponent is hurt. They let their hands go and won't hesitate to throw with bad intentions the instant they see an opening. I put "finishing ability" under this umbrella as well, the capacity to finish someone off which is a skill separate from raw power.

Heart is a fighter's ability to stay composed and pull themselves together when hurt. To shake off the cobwebs and keep fighting after being buzzed, to pull yourself off the ground when dropped, etc. They are not the same.

 

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, Louis fought many times more ranked contenders than Tua, and his chin/defense are more tested on this metric alone.

We would also expect him to get dropped more than Tua in particular, and other fighters in general, on this metric alone.

That having been said, we have to explain the records, just as you say.

I think that Tua basically had one of the best chins in the history of the division.

Was his defense a bit better than normally given credit for?

Possibly.

Was it better than Louis's defense.

Not a chance.

Was Louis particularly deficient in chin or defense?

Not really.

He just wasn't one of the best in the world in either of these aspects, and he fought a hell of a lot of rated fighters.

I always assumed that heart was a component of killer instinct, because otherwise you are just showing killer instinct against men who don't fight back.

Having said that, these are definitions that each person must work out for themself.

 

You are trying to have things both ways.

Louis was dropped more than a dozen times in multiple fights. You cannot have both good defense and a good chin with those stats. Some of the people who dropped Louis weren't even big punchers.

I would dare say Louis' chin cannot be higher than a 6 on a good day if you're going to claim he had good defense. He might have had good recovery to make up for it.

The angle you're trying to use about his chin getting tested due to facing more contenders/having a long career doesn't hold up when we have other boxers who didn't get floored as often as Louis such as Whitaker, Mayweather, Ali, Duran, Hagler, Chavez, etc. they faced plenty of ranked contenders and didn't get dropped as often as Louis.

You are not being honest.

Fair enough.

 

If it was going to get there it would have happened a few years ago when Tua was at the peak of his ESB H2H powers. Tho he's dropped a little Louis has remained constant or dipped a bit.

 

How exactly?

Which of them were not big punchers?

Let's look at the other side of the coin.

Louis fought 30+ ranked contenders, and he was not stopped over a period of nearly a decade and a half.

You can't have it both ways either.

He either had a good chin, or good defense, or a combination of both.

That is some pretty select company that you are putting him in with there.

Tua woudl never be mentioned in the same breath.

However, I will play your game.

Once you get past the absolute defensive specialists, you see guys who got dropped a few times, and in some cases stopped early.

However Tua was dropped less than any of them, so he has the best defense of the lot right?

 

On what planet can a guy get dropped 10 times in multiple fights and they have both good defense and chin?

Braddock.

He brutally KOd a lot of those guys and in many cases he had to get off the floor to win.

You are forgetting about chin.

Tua had above average defense combined with a cinder block chin and an ability to know how to survive.

Like I said, Louis had good fundamentals and could have good defense when he was paying attention, but sometimes became overzealous and aggressive on offense. His defense was inconsistent could sometimes have holes. He made up for it with good ring generalship to control the pace and range, and had good recovery when he did get hit.

 

Louis easy UD.

 

Fighters who were much better than Tua ever was don't get half the praise he does on here, i just don't get it.

 

Lol, Louis destroys Byrd.

 

A planet where it was normal for half of a fighters professional fights, to be against opponents currently ranked in the top ten.

Braddock was considered a puncher in his own time, so that can definitely be argued either way.

 

He’s an entertaining guy with a big punch and those folks are lionized here. As a fighter he’s not in the same solar system as Louis.