The chin and defensive skills of Joe Louis

Sorry I missed your post.

Harrison: maybe 4/10 chin, 5/10 defense.

AJ: 6/10 chin, 5/10 defense.

Wlad: 5/10 chin, 6/10 defense.

Lennox: 7/10 chin, 6/10 defense

Fury: 8/10 chin, 5/10 defense (his defense has gotten much worse)

Mike Tyson: 8/10 chin, 7/10 defense.

 

I'm still waiting for you to tell me which boxers (other than Louis) in the entire history of boxing who had 9/10 chin and 9/10 defense who were dropped in the 1st round on 3 separate occasions.

 

He was also down in the 1st against Buddy Baer.

I define chin as how much damage a fighter can take before they go down. Since Louis went down 3x in the 1st, this means he can't possibly have both 9/10 chin and 9/10 defense.

What are you talking about? Lewis was brutally KOd via 1 punch knockout on two separate occasions. That never happens to Foreman. The two boxers who KOd Lewis were neither small, nor were they very fast.

There is no similarity between Lewis and Foreman other than they were both black and punched hard. The difference in chins is like night and day.

You're not making any sense whatsoever.

Unless you think Ali, Foreman, and Holyfield have 10/10 chins, there is simply no way Louis had a 9/10 chin by your own logic.

Holyfield's health issues when he was stopped by Bowe are well documented. His chin held up for 24 grueling rounds in the other 2 fights so you have to take that 3rd stoppage loss with a big handful of salt.

 

Nobody said getting knocked down guarantees you lose.

Chin and Heart/recovery are two different things.

As I said, chin is what it takes to rock/hurt/drop a boxer.

Heart/Recovery is how long it takes to recover from being hurt.

I think Louis had greater recovery than his chin, similar to Juan Manuel Marquez. He may have had a 6-7/10 chin, but at least a 9 for recovery. This is why Schmeling had to hammer him several times before finally putting him away.

That is also flagrantly false.

Louis was dropped by big hitters such as Galento and Buddy Baer. They were neither fast nor small (well Galento was short, but he was a big guy and weighed a lot). He did not take their power "without flinching".

Again, I fail to see any similarities between Foreman and Louis other than being black HW boxers who had punching power.

Because Chuvalo had a demonstrably better chin than Holyfield that warrants a wider difference than 0.5. Literally no knockdowns in 70+ fights over a rather long career despite facing virtually every noteworthy fighter of his era. Holyfield was as tough as an old boot, but he was hurt, dropped, and rocked more often than Chuvalo.

Not to be rude, but this is now my THIRD time asking you to explain how on Earth a boxer with 9/10 chin and 9/10 defense can get dropped in the 1st on 3 separate occasions. You do realize even Louis biggest die hard supporters didn't rate his attributes that high? I haven't seen anyone on any boxing forum other than you give those numbers in 10+ years of boxing discussions.

 

I don't get how that debunks what I said.

Schmeling was a sharp shooter with good timing, speed, and accuracy. He had power but he wasn't some devasting 1 punch KO artist like Shavers or Wilder. He literally explains that his game plan worked so effectively on Louis because he exploited Louis' weakness to right hand leads dropping his left. Furthermore, Schmeling was the size of a small cruiserweight at 192 lbs which doesn't help your 9/10 chin argument at all.

Louis was rocked and hurt with nearly every punch and was dropped twice. He was also, you now, fighting back and landing punches on Schmeling as well moving around and attempting to win. He wasn't just standing there sticking his chin out getting nailed at will like Miller vs Dubois. As I said, Louis recovered fairly fast and kept Schmeling honest.

Baer had hand issues and was terrified of Louis.

Simon flat out sucked. He was an oaf who probably had less raw talent and coordination than Tex Cobb.

Well...no we don't agree at all. I said 7/10 at best for Louis and you give him a staggering 9/10 with a fortress level 9/10 dedense tbag simply doesn't hold up under scrutiny and film. Neither his record, nor his performance in the ring supports your claims.

Given that boxing isn't a video game revealing health points and stun meter, it is impossible to say which numerical expressions are "right" since it's somewhat subjective.

However, you can still use educated guesses and make comparisons to other boxers to come up with a ranking system. I tried to do this earlier and we reached wildly different conclusions.

10/10 Titanium chins. These boxers have approximately zero KO losses (they were never counted out) and no more than 1 or 2 flash knockdowns. They rarely get hurt/wobbled and have proven chins facing both ranked contenders and big hitters.

Examples: McCall, Chuvalo, Tua, Valuev, etc

9/10 Chin: Granite chins that have withstood tremendous punishments and rarely show vulnerability. No more than 1 KO loss. They rarely hit the deck and prove to have sturdy legs in a long career against good opposition.

Examples: Ali, Foreman, Mercer, Vitali, Holyfield, Tex Cobb, James Smith

8/10 stone chins: These boxers have an impressive set of whiskers and are difficult, but not impossible to hurt. No more than 2 KO losses and few knockdowns. They have faced a moderately high number of good contenders and punchers.

Examples: Joe Frazier, Holmes, Bowe, Liston, Bonavena, Tucker, Arreola

7/10 Oak chins: These boxers have above average durability but get wobbled more often than 8's and above. No more than 3 KO losses. They can be fairly sturdy to the average bomb, but a strong barrage or a really strong puncher may manage to really hurt or KO them. They may have decent enough recovery to avoid getting taken down by the follow up punches.

Examples: Lewis, Berbick, Terrel, Louis, Byrd, Povetkin.

6/10 Palm tree chins: These boxers aren't very hard to hurt when facing above average punches, but they are still not always easy to 1 punch KO unless you're an elite hitter or finisher. They get rocked often but occasionally show decent resilience. Sometimes they have poor balance or are unable to brace themselves well. No more than 4-5 KO losses.

Examples: Wladmir, Ruddock, Bruno, Norton, Witherspoon, Schmeling, Haye

5/10 Clay chins: About average. They are sturdy enough to avoid getting KOd by feather fists and most average punchers, but above average punchers can absolutely rock the hell out of them. Unless they have good defense, they get obliterated by most elite fighters and punches. They are often very vulnerable in the early rounds to fast starters.

Examples: Morrison, Carl Williams, Patterson, Alex Stewart, Jimmy Ellis, Weaver.

 

Wladmir's defense was not that great. He ruled for 11 years by getting away with slamming clinching, back humping, and using his long reach and power to mash jabs and keep guys at his preferred range. Maybe you could bump his defense up to a 7, but he wasn't some brilliant defensive wizard. He was a spoiler who used ugly tactics to avoid getting KOd. His opposition was pretty bad and only occasionally faced decent opponents such as Haye, Byrd, Povetkin, etc.

Tyson's chin was demolished by the average hitting Buster Douglas in his prime, so a 9.5 is absolutely absurd. He was stopped 5x but I don't hold his last 2 KO losses against him since he was completely washed, but that's still 3 legitimate KO losses when he was a world class fighter. Holyfield is a decent hitter, but not some devastating puncher and he also demolished a Tyson who had won 2 championship belts previously.

Really the only times "Prime" Tyson truly got his chin tested aside from Douglas were the Ruddock fights and maybe a handful of decent solid hits from Smith and Bruno who fought like scared girls against Tyson refusing to really open up for more than a few seconds at a time.