ATG Middleweight Chin Tier list-The Top Forty

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, Jan 8, 2024.


  1. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Holman Williams had 187 fights and was stopped just thrice. Once by Charley Burley, who he split a series 3-3-1 with, another by the 8lbs heavier ATG puncher Archie Moore and once on a cut in his penultimate fight when he was way past prime.

    Aside from Harry Greb, Williams resume is arguably the deepest in MW history. Aside from Burley x 5 (at MW, 7 in total), he fought Lloyd Marshall x 2, Bert Lytell x 4, Cocoa Kid x 6 (and many more down at WW), Jose Basora x 7, Kid Tunero x 4, Jack Chase x 4, Eddie Booker, Aaron Wade, Frankie Britt x 2, Joe Carter x 3, Steve Belloise, Antonio Fernandez and Sampson Powell x 2.

    That's an absurdly high quality set of opposition.

    I can only see his chin as titanium or iron and have no strong feelings either way as to which. I'll guess iron, no problem whatsoever if he ends up as titanium.
     
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  2. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    According to my notes, Ketchell contested around 26 of his 60 fights at MW.

    Stoppage losses, as a just turned 18-year old down at WW & up at HW to Jack Johnson barely factor into my rating.

    His only stoppage loss in the c.26 fights he contested at MW was to noted puncher Billy Papke, against whom Stanley won a series 3-1.

    Aside from Papke, Ketchel's best MW opposition was Philadelphia Jack O'Brien x 2, Hugo Kelly, Mike Twin Sullivan, Jack Twin Sullivan & Joe Thomas x 2. There are some fine, fine MWs there, but none I'd consider especially big punchers.

    Ketchel went the distance with Sam Langford, but it was over 6-rounds and I suspect Langford was taking it easy, at least to a degree, in attempt to generate interest, and a higher purse, in either a title fight, or at least a fight scheduled over a longer distance.

    On balance, my vote for Ketchel is iron.
     
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  3. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Burley was 1/16 of a whisker off being stopped vs Ezzard Charles. He was definitely seriously hurt in that one.
     
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  4. Jel

    Jel Obsessive list maker Full Member

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    Does anyone know how many times Burley was knocked down in his career?
     
  5. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Charles dropped him once and Marshall twice to get started. Both basically at middleweight.

    Burley is titanium for me.
     
  6. themostoverrated

    themostoverrated Active Member Full Member

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    Can we have Carmen Basilio please? Pressure fighting is where chin matters the most.

    Bernard 'the executioner' Hopkins should be discussed after him.
     
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Are you talking about the first fight or the second, and if the first, the fourth round or the last?
     
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  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    He was down to one knee against Charles on a right hand; , he was then hit with another right hand while on the deck. Still, he was up for a no-count or a three-count depending on who you like. This was as hurt as i've heard of Burley being.
     
  9. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    First fight 4th round.
     
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  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    He was more hurt in the final round based on everything I have. The worst reports of the fourth round have Burley "hanging on" to Charles, but they also have Charles "hanging on" to Burley in the seventh. It just means holding I think.

    The worst Burley was hurt in his career was against Charles and was in the first fight IMO but it was in round ten on that downed punch. And he was fine.
     
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  11. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    I came across this earlier.


    "Ezzard Charles moved into the first rank of the nation's middleweights today through an upset conquest of Charley Burley. Charles snapped Burley's string of victories at 26 straight and he did it so convincingly that even Burley's best friends admitted he was licked. Charles won the first two rounds but when Burley came back to win the 3rd, everyone thought Charley was just cold and now warming up. In the 4th, however, Charles had Burley as close to being KO'd as any fighter can be.
     
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  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, that's the old Post-Gazette entry that used to sit in the Boxrec entry, I don't think it's there anymore for some reason. There were two Post-Gazette entries and the one you posted there was from Al Abrams. It's very much the minority report though. The other report in the Gazette has Burley "holding on". The Cincinnati paper in attendance was The Enquirer - it makes no special mention of the fourth at all. The Sun-Telegraph makes no special mention of the fourth either but has Charles hurting Burley in the "second, third and fourth rounds" although most have Burley winning the third and being hurt by a right hand to the mouth in the first. The Ring makes no special mention of the fourth, just the tenth.

    The Abrams report in the Gazette has had a lot of legs. Fight City recently mentioned Burley as nearly knocked out in the fourth without even mentioning the report, like it's a fact. But nobody else who was at the fight agreed so far as I can see, though I haven't seen the Pittsburgh Press report in years. If five reports have the fourth as nothing special, and one writer has one of the fighters as nearly knocked out, I know what i'm making of that. That might be unfair on Charles because maybe Al saw something everyone else missed, but there it is for what it's worth.
     
  13. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member

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    Fair enough. The boxrec report still carries this info.
     
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    That's bad. I wish at the very least they would carry the others. Still, it's the most descriptive and colorful so I suppose it is inevitable.
     
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  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    One other little thing, the writers can't agree on whether the punch that hurt Burley in the tenth was a left or a right. I'm actually inclined to believe it was a left based upon this re-read today but there's no way to say really. It just feels unlike even young Charles to double the right hand on Burley for the second shot while he's down whereas a left-hook right-hand is to be believed. According to Otty there were shouts for Charles to be thrown out, but Burley kind of negated them by bouncing back so quickly. That only would have resulted in a third fight though and I just don't think Burley would ever have beaten Charles. Still, if a fighter is going to have your number, might as well be Ezzard.
     
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