Poll - Who would win? Sonny Liston 1959 or Oleksandr Usyk 2022?

Excellent post.

With the ever moving wraith before him, Sonny did give some very nice attention to Ali’s more accessible body.

Now those shots might’ve had a chance of severely hurting and/or slowing down some other opponents - BUT not Ali.

Ali was the whole package. Extremely difficult to hit in the head but if you tried his body, then you were hitting a concrete abdomen and flanks - perfectly conditioned in that regard with a good dose of inborn resilience that some can never develop no matter how hard they train for it.

Post Miami fight, Dundee commented on the visible marks, welts Ali had on his stomach and sides from the body punches Liston laid on him.

Impossible to forget one body punch that Liston landed that could be clearly seen and heard on the audio - IIRC, announced Steve Ellis famously described it thusly, - “Ooph, a hard body shot, dug under the heart!” - or words to that effect.

As single body shots go, it was in fact a terrific shot that Liston landed. .

 

You are completely and utterly off your head.

 

His claim that Usyk wins easily just got put into context.

I'm even more confident in a Liston victory.

 

Ali was hit with way bigger body shots by Frazier and Especially Norton. Watch the video below. Ali was truly one of the toughest men ever. No one else stands after that shot. Wepner did not hurt him.

.https://youtube.com/shorts/0vNVzVK23WY?si=5a8BbGsZ2Ge7NMNB

 

The problem is this perception of Liston seems to be far beyond his actual accomplishments. There's nothing on Liston's resume to make me confident he beats Gassiev or Breidis for example. That's not to say he couldn't possibly win just that his unimpressive win resume gives me little confidence in favoring him heavily. Also for all this talk of Liston's power he didn't stop many guys renowned for durability and was taken the distance by Whitehurst and Machen so the idea of him stopping Usyk seems pretty far fetched.

I can't see Whitehurst lasting the distance once much less twice with Mike Tyson. Or Marty Marshall. Can you?

 

I think the perception of Liston (at least mine) is in line with accomplishments.

Speaking of being perceived to be well beyond one’s own “actual” accomplishments - a certain contingent of Tyson fans, both during and after his career, raise Mike well above what he did “actually” achieve -

Proof in the pudding is that Mike figured in AND was at the short end of TWO of the biggest UPSETS in boxing history - the opponents in question being forecast to be obliterated by Mike.

I cannot see prime Liston succumbing to and losing to Douglas and Holyfield as Mike did.

At any rate, perhaps on paper, I might guess that Whitehurst might not last the distance against Mike.

But, then again, yet another Tyson opponent, James Tillis, was also supposed to be crushed in 1-2 rounds, but, as we know, the actual outcome was well in defiance of most prognostications.

Even if Mike did make short work of Whitehurst, that doesn’t impugn Liston who was a boxer/puncher with more rounded skills than Mike. A different and far more broadly applied style and skill set as compared to Mike.

Liston didn’t necessarily try to bomb his opponents out in 1-2 rounds either. Of course he’d step on the pedal if realistic opportunities arose.

Otherwise, if those opportunities didn’t present, Sonny was well equipped to patiently wait for the right opportunities, box, wear his man down and go the distance and take the points if necessary - Mikey T., not so much.

 

He was visibly a bit hurt on the ground. Not saying it was a near thing or anything, but the shot clearly hurt.

 

No, no I'm not. The fight is on Youtube. It's not like we are talking about John L/ Sullivan here, or something.

 

Off balance from a punch is a knockdown, and no, he was not all smiles on that canvas.

 

He wasn't off balance from the punch which is what everyone is trying to tell you. He was off balance prior to the punch being landed, because the guy stepped on his foot.

What the **** were you expecting him to do? Start giggling? Perhaps he wasn't "all smiles" because on top of stepping on Ali's foot to secure the knock down, the guy had been cheating all night. Wepner's manager literally called his fighter "the king of dirty fighting." and Wepner certainly lived up to the moniker. He hit Ali with multiple rabbit punches, during the course of the fight, and nothing was done despite Ali making multiple complaints.

Wepner's own manager didn't even think Ali was hurt and said to him "your guy's getting up and he looks pissed off."

This is quite literally the first time I've ever seen anyone use this "knock down" to criticize Ali. Even his most bonafide haters don't bring it up, which is telling.

 

Feet get stepped on. It was still a punch that put him down. It still hurt him, and clearly so.

 

Weak willed Sonny Liston gets turned into mulch by Usyk. Total mismatch.

 

Up in the air for me.

 

When feet get stopped on, anything that comes after it (while your foot is on your opponents) is entirely irrelevant.

Where is this "clear" evidence Ali was hurt? It was so clear, neither Ali, Wepner, nor Wepner's manager, claimed Ali was hurt in any way. Using this as a way to criticize Ali is quite frankly ridiculous as I said again. Here is footage of the knock down.

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Pinpoint to me ANY point in the video where Ali was "clearly hurt".