Ron Lyle vs Cleveland Williams

1. The Foreman Lyle faced, tried to change his natural body mechanics and overall style and was not nearly as hard a puncher as he was pre-Zaire nor nearly as effective.

2. Even so Foreman had Lyle ready to go at the end of the 2nd round, before it rang early.

3. Shavers also had Lyle ready to go before he was saved by the bell.

4. Williams was much much faster and more importantly displayed much better skills and especially defense than Shavers and (at least this version of) Foreman. He's also a much better boxer than Lyle, imo. He has options here.

I've always seen the Lyle-Liston comparison, but it is drastically wrong. Virtually the only similarities I see between the two are their relatively late starts at what I assume to be a similar age, and them going to prison, and picking up boxing there. That's it. Lyle lacked Liston's two most important traits, which is not his power (though Lyle didn't possess Liston level power either), but his ring IQ, and versatility, which are what allowed him to make adjustments to beat Machen, and more pertinent to this thread, Williams. Without them, he would've been just another puncher (albeit a technically sound one with an ATG jab, the latter of which Lyle also lacked).

 

Lyle. He was just plain better. He was a better boxer, more durable, hit harder, and beat better fighters. Id love to know what area Williams holds an advantage.

 

Thanks god klompton, someone with sharp mind.

 

Area of Liston opponent, so Liston paroles could say he fought someone good

 

Better boxer? He was laughably outboxed by Young on two occasions. Winning one round in two fights. Williams held his own against Machen, garnering a draw, which is better than anything Lyle could dream of against Machen.

Beat better fighters? Which one of them has wins over more top tenners? Hint; it's not Lyle.

Williams was also much faster, and had a much better defense.

Admit it, if Williams threw a punch and laughably missed so bad to the point his head hit the turnbuckle like Lyle, you'd wax biblical about it and have the photograph of it bedside.

 

I don't see any evidence that Foreman wasn't as hard a puncher. He changed his style, but that doesn't mean he couldn't hit as hard.

You could also say Lyle had Foreman ready to go at the beginning of the 5th until he ran out of gas and Foreman capitalized on it. Lyle/Foreman was much more of a back and forth than Williams/Liston which pretty one sided IMO.

Lyle was hurt by that Shavers left hook, but he came back to stop him in a highlight reel KO. I doubt that Williams would have responded any better to that Shavers left hook than Lyle did.

If Williams fought the version of Foreman that Lyle did, I can't really see him doing any better. But I can see Lyle doing better than Williams vs Liston. Although, I do think that depending on Liston's mood, Liston stops him somewhere in the mid rounds or wins a clear cut UD. But it depends on how Liston wants to win it. Though I do think Lyle puts up stiffer resistance than Williams.

 

Lyle might’ve lasted longer against Liston but Williams aggression and offence appeared to trigger Sonny into his own proactive aggression earlier than he might’ve.

Williams was boxing very well, and had he stuck strictly to that he might’ve last that much longer against Liston even though still ultimately losing.

However, when the Big Cat scored his first big hits in both fights, he sniffed blood and absolutely let it all hang out.

Fool me once for Cleve but shame on Williams for not trying to box Liston for longer the second time around.

I could imagine Lyle approaching Liston somewhat differently and relatively sedately as compared to Williams.

However, at whatever point Liston did begin seriously putting it to Ron, Lyle might likely lash back in kind - and I think Liston wins the slugfest, just as he did against The Big Cat.

Otherwise, without necessarily stoking Lyle’s inner fire to slug at any time during the fight, I’m afraid that Liston would simply box it out, brutally and methodically dismantling Ron for a stoppage at around the 3/4 mark of the full route.

 

I mean it's clear as day. He shifted his body mechanics, bringing his feet to close together, which altered his natural gait. Clancy made Foreman bring his feet to close together, which prevented Foreman from utilizing all of his power and left him off balance quite a bit (perhaps never more apparent in the 7th round against Young when he had him ready to go), his jab also became notably weaker and though it still looked good, it was more or less just there, when before it was a beautiful weapon that could stun and stagger very durable ATGs such as Frazier. The first time it was very noticeable was against Dino Denis.

His jab was less "mobile" for lack of a better term, as he'd mostly throw it while standing still, instead of walking in with his weight behind the jab, which he did beautifully against Norton.

You could say that.... but it's not true.. Foreman staggered but recovered quickly. Lyle tried to finish him but Foreman held on. Lyle didn't gas out either. This is a common misconception. When both men were throwing Lyle was caught off balance and hit with a right hand, stumbled and then got hit with a 1-2. That was the beginning of the end. It wasn't because he gassed.

Yes it was. Because neither men demonstrated much skill, or defense. Jabs, head movement, setting up punches went out the window. Lyle wouldn't have enjoyed this luxury with Williams.

1. Williams was ahead on the cards in the first fight, broke Liston's nose and nearly knocked him out by his own admission.

2. Williams could've lasted longer, by trying to box Liston but it's not his M.O. Very very few would've lasted to long against Liston approaching him as Williams did

All Williams would have to do, is get up to match Lyle's response seeing as the bell would ring right after. Seeing as Liston couldn't put Williams down for the count on two occasions, I don't think Shavers would coldcock him on his first try.

I doubt it. But I also don't think Lyle would approach him nearly as aggressively. If he did, he doesn't give Liston nearly as much trouble as Williams imo. He wasn't as fast, and didn't have Williams punch variety, his boxing skills, nor his defense. Lyle was somewhat predictable and mechanical (though in his defense this is common from someone who started in their 30s) a bit like his contemporary Foster, (though Lyle was obviously a lot better than Foster who somehow became number one contender without beating a single top tenner) Liston would figure him out far easier, and quicker.

 

Williams better boxer?
Laughable, if you at least watched Lyles fights with Ali, Bugner and Bonavena.
Lyle could punch with both hands and box for 15 rounds which Williams could not even in his dreams.
Lyle again better boxer, better chin,better power and could use both hands while only edge Williams has is speed and that he fought Liston so Liston paroles could praise him for the next 200 years.
Lyle survived a knockdown from Shavers, got up and knocked him out while Williams went down against light punching Ali and against LHW Bob Satterfield.

 

Excellent post. Williams would've lasted a lot longer had he boxed. The reason he lost wasn't a durability issue, it was because he chose to slug with Liston. If his durability was really the glass some think it was, he wouldn't have made it past the first round. He even took some very solid punches that would've (and in fact did) floor lesser fighters, and returned better than he got.

That being said, he was never going to win by boxing Liston. Slugging with him, trying to land a hail mary on Liston's chin was his only bet imo.

 

Oh, so now you are going to lie. Ok. Lets compare:

Lyle wins/draws vs ranked fighters
Middleton KO3 (4)
Peralta D (10)
Bonavena W12 (7)
Ellis W12 (8)
Shavers KO6 (7)
Bugner W12 (9)
Ledoux W10 (9)

Vs

Williams wins/draws vs ranked fighters
Miteff WKO5 (9)
Machen D10 (2)
Daniels W10 (6)
Daniels W10 (8)

Which has all been spelled out for you before, specifically by me, more than once. So yeah, pretty sad you need to lie about it.

Ill take wins over Shavers, Ellis, Bonavena, and Bugner over Miteff and Daniels any day of the week. Ill also take outboxing Ali before getting stopped controversial late in the fight and dropping Foreman twice in losing efforts over having a good first round with Liston and basically nothing else in losing efforts besides getting the bejesus beaten out of him.

 

Ellis had dropped out of the ring rankings by the time he fought Lyle. Bugner was ranked. Shavers might've been ranked, but he'd dropped out of the top ten after his loss to Stallings.

Do you have a source for the other fighters having a ranking? I'm certainly not gonna take your word for it, but if I'm wrong I'll concede the fact, which is a foreign concept to you.

For the last time, he wasn't outboxing Ali. This is a myth repeated by know-nothings such as yourself. Ali was simply in one of his lazy moods and wasn't doing much of anything. He came into the bout woefully out of shape 224 pounds which was the highest he'd ever been. Lyle was ahead on account of being the busier man. Lyle himself wasn't doing much but seemed content to do just enough to win the rounds. No more, no less.

He didn't remotely hurt Ali nor have him in any danger.

Also it was not a "controversial" stoppage. He had his hands down, was completely defenseless, and getting bombarded with punches, and returning nothing. What was the ref supposed to do?

 

This … Ali was never in the remotest danger of losing that fight and Ron Lyle would have been seriously hurt if the referee hadn’t stopped the fight, the supposedly feather punching Ali just ruined him.

 

Williams