Fantasy Fight: Joe Louis vs Sonny Liston

Louis in 6.

 

While Louis is the better overall fighter, I like Sonny in the battle of the jabs here, and that puts Joe at a serious disadvantage when the bombs start falling. It's possible Louis could unleash a vicious combo on Liston here and beat him but trading with Sonny is a losing proposition .Liston by TKO

 

Let me know what you guys think...

Sonny Liston vs Joe Louis

Here we have a tremendous opening fight to kick things off. You have the Brown Bomber Joe Louis squaring off against the Big Bear Sonny Liston. Both pack serious firepower in both fists and would be looking to take the other out as early as possible. Joe is an inch taller but 20lbs lighter and gives 8 inches up in reach quite the difference. Liston hits slightly harder and is more durable with Louis having the faster hands, better combination punching, heart, stamina and about even in terms of ring IQ. Sonny is also the much stronger fighter and Joe would struggle to push him around. A real toss up of a fight.

The contest starts with both feeling each other out fully aware of the power the other possesses. Liston’s long hard jab would give Louis serious problems early on and would give Sonny some great opportunities to land some punishing blows with his right hand and build an early lead on the scorecards. Joe’s quality would start to show as he adjusted to Liston’s attacks and forced the fight to the inside where would land some beautifully timed combinations and give the Big Bear some food for thought.

By round 7 Sonny is up 4-2 and is starting to apply the pressure. Joe knowing he ‘s behind opens up more and looks to land some big shots but leaves himself susceptible to the right uppercut and Liston lands a stunning shot knocking Joe down. Louis makes the count, clears his head and rides out the round. Round 7 begins and Sonny’s feeling pretty confident he comes out looking for the finish and bombs start to fly. Joe has recovered and simply beats Sonny to the punch, landing a blurring 4 punch combo and down goes Liston. The crowd are at fever pitch, after being behind on the cards and clearly outmuscled this fight has turned around and Louis is ready for war. Liston is up at 8 and needs a minute to clear his head all the while Joe is opening up with left hooks, right hands and some hard jabs.

Round 8 starts and a sense of foreboding is in the air, the feeling that one of these amazing warriors won’t make it out the round. The fighters walk to the centre and nod on their way in, a sign of mutual respect and then the carnage begins. Liston goes back to thudding out his jab and pushing Joe back, Louis is slipping the jab and coming into the inside with his flurries. Sonny now fully aware of the tactic and danger of letting too many shots land constantly ties up Joe and leans his heavier body on his opponent.

Even though Louis addressed his tendency to drop his left after throwing a jab post Schmeling 1 fight he still does it on occasion and with his stationery head Liston finally sees the opening he’s been looking for all night and lands a poleaxing overhand right and Louis is down and it’s a heavy knockdown. The commentators are worried for Louis but he rises as a true warrior however the ensuing onslaught causes the ref to step in and call the fight off.

The audience are in awe at such a spectacle and have witnessed one of the best fights to mix power and technical skills.

Verdict – TKO win to Liston round 8

 

Louis wasn't 20 lighter than Sonny. 5-10 lbs lighter. I don't know why you always assume Louis weighed 190 lbs.
Louis didn't address his left hand positioning after Schmeling 1. No one could take advantage of the left hand positioning because they didn't have Schmeling's timing and speed.
Schmeling didn't just counter the jab, he countered his hook, bob and weaved at close range to explode with his right, threw his right as Louis was closing in on him before attaching himself to Louis to smother the counters.
Schmeling could throw his right at point blank with very little space to move, it was a thing of beauty. Charles and Walcott could not quite tag Joe like Max did, I doubt Liston will either.

For durability, Liston is more resistant to knockdowns but for overall durability before getting stopped, he ranks lower than Louis who had to be physically destroyed to be kept off his feet.
Can't imagine Louis being out of it after 6 rounds let alone 1.

Louis didn't leave his head stationary. He ducked, moved sideways and flicked his right hand instinctively to parry incoming attacks.
The bread and butter of his countering style was the slip, a maneuver that a guy with no head movement cannot use.
You can see many of his defensive tactics in the short video below

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Louis fought around 198 lbs Liston came in circa 215 lbs so I would say that’s around a 20 lb advantage

Also Louis wasn’t known to have good head movement most of the time he didn’t need it given how much better he was than his opponents but Liston is another breed of fighter entirely

Would Joe be able to avoid the ramrod jab from the bigger and stronger Sonny I don’t think so

Don’t get me wrong Louis was the greater fighter in terms of ATG, had the far better career and defeated the better opposition but this is a debate to see would have prevailed in a fight

 

211 for Machen
213 for Williams
215 for Patterson

Louis was 200-205 prime and had the rare 207 lbs when the situation called for it. The weight difference could be as much as 15 lbs or as little as 6 lbs.

Louis wasn't known to have good head movement despite for all the cases he displayed good head movement I guess. The video shows a lot of movement in any case.
He will be ducking, slipping, parrying and using quick footwork to move in and out of punching range. We have multiple sources of him doing all those things, he isn't going to magically forget about them in a fantasy match up.

Liston isn't a different breed. He punches harder and has a similar style but this is boxing. Louis has better timing, balance, stamina, and technical ability and you can see that in their records.

His highest highs are higher and his lowest lows also higher. There's no reason to really favor Sonny over him.

 

Louis was 198 for Schmeling 2

Liston was 215 against Patterson

Both of these weights were for the career best performances arguably so only fair to base a fantasy match up on these numbers

 

Liston by 9th round TKO in an exciting fight

 

I can see the case, but their prime weights ranged.
The weight discrepancy could be 17 lbs but it's not unreasonable that Louis could show up at 205 lbs or that Liston could turn up at 213 lbs.
Both were prime in these weights anyway.

 

The point about weight was really to emphasise the bigger fighter which Liston was the exact lbs isn’t really that important

 

And that's what I was disputing, that Liston was some lean 225 lbs fighter.
When you think "20 lbs heavier than Louis" your mind doesn't jump to guy weighing 212-15 lbs.
Louis is an inch taller, Liston is ~10 lbs heavier, not much of a size difference to point out in a matchup.

 

Atleast 10 lbs of muscle is quite the advantage coupled with a massive reach Liston would give Louis all kinds of problems

Liston had issues with movers which Louis wasn’t, in a firefight you have to favour the fighter with the better chin, who hit harder and was stronger all advantages to Sonny

 

What a strange statement.
Schmeling and Liston are not similar in terms of their boxing ability or style.

 

That's fair. The extra 10 lbs muscle weight gave Liston a leg up in punching power, while Louis had better speed and coordination.
Liston's 4.5 inches reach advantage is noted. Louis would have to time Liston's jabs and counter accordingly at range.

Louis could be a mover when the situation called for it. (0:38)

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And you're mistaken if you think you'd have to move like Ali to successfully defend against Liston's attacks. The Machen fight is on YouTube. It wasn't some bicycle job by Machen, he stood either just out of range or extremely close to smother Sonny and tie him up. Not a knock on Sonny by any means, fighters have used these tactics to nulify a punchers power before, case in point: Louis-Schmeling 1, Louis-Conn 1.

The point is that Louis was perfectly capable of using these techniques himself and, again, video evidence shows this.

And while Liston had his "default" shoulder sway as he was closing in, Louis fought out of a semi crouch. He stuck his chin out a lot less than Sonny did, which validates Sonny's need for constant shoulder swaying, but it doesn't make it better than Louis' crouch, parry, duck and weave tactics.

If Louis was some guy with no head movement and footwork who would stand in front of Liston and block jabs with his teeth of course he is going to get knocked out.

Sonny's main demonstration of a great chin are his two fights against Cleveland Williams, a guy whose power didn't really show when fighting notable opposition.
And his fight with Nino Valdes (who Louis reportedly knocked out in a single round in 1950).

Louis took shots from Max and Buddy Baer, Galento and Walcott and none where anywhere close to keeping him out of the fight for good.

If we are going to knock Louis down for getting knocked out by Schmeling and Marciano then we have to balance it out with Sonny's 2 ko losses to Ali and the knockout loss by Martin.

Sonny is more resistant to flash knockdowns, Louis is harder to stop.

Sonny hit harder, Louis has better accuracy, speed, footwork and defense.
Both very durable. Fun fight.

 

Given your propensity to track down and kill on a whim, Serge, I would say the offender got off quite lightly.