Guide me to the lineal heavyweight champion please.

Agreed, Holmes definitely isn't universally considered to ever be lineal because there's the rest of the world....and you. He sure ain't universal.

 

I agree. The 1880s starting point in 1885 is revisionism that reeks of "I want a clean answer to this question even if there isn't one". It took time for the Sullivan lineage to clearly establish itself and a lot of early claimants are brushed aside in the name of simplicity.

If we have to pick an arbitrary start for Sullivans lineage his fight with Mitchell in 1883 makes the most sense. 2 undefeated fighters at the OG MSG. Sullivan KOs Mitchell in a competitive battle. McCaffrey beats Mitchell in a title eliminator then fights Sullivan. But the reality is there is no "first" heavyweight title fight(under Queensbury rules) that people at the time would have attached the same signifigance we do.

 

I hate to be a pedant, but you have to provide some explanation of where the title came from.

Many people skip this question.

 

I agree that the Mitchell fight represents the most logical origin point for the lineal gloved title.

However Sullivan did defeat Joe Goss in a gloved exhibition, while he nominally held the bare knuckle lineal title, so you could make the argument for that.

 

Holmes lineal status is based on the general perception that he was the best for several years but he never unified and wasn't willing to face his main rivals. Obviously unifying would have solidified his claim to being lineal but he never did. You disagree?

In 1935 Joe Louis was the best heavyweight in the world and in 1958 it was Sonny Liston but neither man was recognized as lineal prior to defeating the reigning champion.
Using Holmes criteria they could have been crowned lineal simply by virtue of being the best without facing Braddock or Patterson.

 

When Fury returned from retirement (2018) Usyk wasn't even a heavyweight, he was a cruiserweight. Usyk faced and beat Joshua at a point where he wasn't ranked number 2, as he had only beaten Chazz Witherspoon (not a top 10) and Derek Chisora (a top 20, perhaps) at heavyweight.

Additionally, in 2018 Joshua was beating Joseph Parker and an aging Alexander Povetkin.

 

That's an interesting take.

Usyk was ranked #10 by Ring at the end of 2020, his next fight was AJ 1. So, I assume Fury was officially retired in August 2022 when Usyk vs AJ 2 took place, as they'd have then been ranked #1 and #2 by the ring?

If so, this has piqued my interest as to the criteria you use to determine the lineal champion and how applying that criteria historically impacts who you perceive as the previous lineal champions.

I assume if the lineal champion is officially retired, regardless for how long & how long it is until their "comeback", you consider the lineal title vacant and the outcome in a fight between the #1 and #2 contenders determines the new lineage? If so, at what point, if ever, do you consider Larry Holmes became lineal champion, please?

 

His lineal status is based on beating Ali. People make this stuff so complicated.

What do you expect now there's about 8 belts? Someone has to unify them all of them to be lineal?

Perception and hindsight of who is best means nothing. Hindsight tells us Tyson was best by the time he beat Berbick but that just doesn't count.

Joe Louis? Study up.......Joe Louis was utterly whooped by Max Schmeling in 1936!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How on earth could he be the best in 35!

You've just undermined your entire case!!!!!!

 

Thanks.

Do you personally consider the lineage to have passed from Ali to Holmes when they fought?

If so, on what rationale do you base an Ali coming back from retirement, 2 years after his last fight, retaining his lineal status until he lost it in the ring, whilst you consider that Fury lost his during retirement, despite coming back from "retirement" 7 months after his last fight?

Is it that the lineal title can't be vacant? I.e. between Ali retiring and fighting Holmes, the #1 and #2 contenders didn't meet to create a new lineage, so Ali retained his lineal status in retirement, whereas the #1 and #2 contenders did meet during Fury's retirement?

I'm not picking btw, just curious as to your definition of the criteria that must be met for a new lineage to be established in the event the lineal champion retires and then makes a comeback.

 

Ali was a retired former champion attempting a comeback when he faced Holmes not a reigning champion so that wouldn't give Holmes lineal status. He was also totally shot to bits and would have lost to anyone in the top 10 and probably guys outside the top 10.
Going into the fight Ali was clearly seen as a challenger attempting to win a 4th title not a reigning lineal champion making a title defense which totally contradicts the idea Holmes became lineal champion by beating him.

I don't see any contradiction between Louis being the best heavyweight in the world and having an off night against Schmelling. Lewis lost to Rahman in 2001 but I would still rate him the best heavyweight in the world at that time. Moreover the reigning lineal champions in 1935 were Baer and Braddock both of whom he beat.

 

True lineage ended when Gene Tunney retired. Everyone who came after is just a paper champion

 

Why not when Jeffries retired? Marvin Hart was a mediocre fighter who fought a middleweight in Jack Root for a title shot; Tommy Burns was a middleweight and only fought middleweights before fighting for the belt.

 

Virtually no-one talks about reigning lineal champs and them making defenses of it. It's a treat for true deep diving boxing nerds and followers. Clearly most of the world accepts the lineage going to Holmes when he beat Ali.

Louis had to come back and prove he was the world's best heavyweight. He was beaten from pillar to frigging post yet here you are trying to anoint him lineal. He never beat Baer when he was lineal and he didn't face Braddock until two years later....when he himself became lineal!!

Tyson had an off night vs Buster, did he get to keep his titles? Well he didn't stay linear either. Lewis had an off night but that off night cost him his lineal status and so it should have. It's how it actually works.