Remember Joshua has looked more vulnerable than Fury against most common opponents

The main reason why AJ has looked more vulnerable than Fury is simple he's not as good a boxer, the acid test will be when Fury takes on Usyk that will not only give us a clear number one but if Fury wins a clear number 2 in Usyk and if Usyk wins then its Fury/AJ for the second best of this generation

 

You shouldn't be.

If we're comparing versions it's not irrelevant if you can suspect that someone's mind wasn't really where it was supposed to be. It certainly isn't irrelevant for Fury fans when it comes to his performance against Ngannou. But good to know that you only see such things as vapid excuses, so it won't be something you bring up if Joshua beats Ngannou more clearly.

And if we're going to deep dive into versions of a fighter, not just Wlad's age should be of importance but also Joshua's relative inexperience. He had been pro for about half the time Fury had when he met Wlad. But I'm pretty sure that that's something you won't think is relevant either.

If Joshua beats Ngannou without question that alone will make him better against common opponents. Because you can actually make a case for Ngannou deserving the decision in the first, while you cannot make a case that Wlad and Whyte deserved a win against Joshua. Joshua will also face a version that has increased his pro boxing experience with a 100%.

If Fury then loses to Usyk you're just left with Joshua losing to a guy Fury hasn't even faced. And that won't mean a thing if Joshua then beats Fury.

Maybe, quite possibly, all these things won't happen, but we don't know as of yet, so I'd wait with confident verdicts.

 

Yes. And we would really need a fight between them to get a clear sense of of the order between them.

But if Fury beats Usyk and then loses to Joshua it becomes trickier.

 

I agree but one or another I see Fury vs AJ in the next 12 months in Saudi whether Fury beats Usyk or losses

 

That's a really good point. Joshua got fast tracked to the Klitschko fight and was probably a bit out of his depth at that stage. He needed to sink or swim, and he very nearly sunk. It was a really good learning fight and ten times riskier than anything Fury has done.

 

Yeah, maybe, Hope so. I'd really like that fight.

 

Yeah, Fury had been a pro longer than that when he faced Cunningham.

 

So Fury doing better against common opponents make him better than Joshua, but not the other way around?

Been through this on another thread, but, sure, I think it's very reasonable to have Fury's win as better. Although it's far from possible that Joshua faced a better version. In that thread I gave several examples of how motivation and preparation has overcome ageing. But in most cases the younger version is the better version, so that's fair enough.

Still, though, you argue that Fury having a better win over Wlad means he is better but Joshua having a better win against Ngannou (assuming he does) doesn't mean anything? You seem to suit your argument after wanting Fury to be better.

As we stand right now Fury is rightfully higher ranked. But a few results could change that.

If you think he is objectively more skillfull I do question your knowledge of boxing, though. Since he has, objectively, worse fundamentals. Quite clearly so. His struggles with Ngannou was very much down to his lack in fundamentals. Like holding your ****ing right hand up when you jab, which is basically the first thing you learn when you step into a boxing gym.

Fury-Wilder 2 is so bad in terms of fundamentals from both men that I actually struggle to watch it. The third even more so. It's our generation's Demspey-Firpo pretty much. Fury is bad, but Wilder is still substantially worse.

I think he's more natural in how he adapts to situations, though, and he recovers much better from being hurt. Which has saved him at least two losses. He has also had the more protected career and has so far tried to duck the **** out of Usyk, so there is that also. If you keep away from the fighters that can expose your poor fundamentals it's less risk that they get exposed. I think that's why Fury has to be dragged kicking and screaming to the ring against Usyk, if he does show up.

 

Doesn't sound like you know what fundamentals is. It's for example guard, bringing your hand back when you punch, how you punch etc.

If you didn't see the many mistakes he did in Wilder 2 you surely don't know squat bout fundamentals. You can make the point that he disregarded fundamentals like he did because Wilder was so pathetically out of position that he couldn't capitalise on the many basic mistakes Fury made, though. Like picking ****ing punches from his waist and totally disregarding his guard.

He's a bit more responsible when the other guy's actually a threat, but even then he he's sloppy with brining his hands back and having a proper guard in the first place. Which has been exploited by for example Cunningham, Wallin and Ngannou.

That he wasn't tagged against Wlad was for tactical reasons, He fought a safety first fight, staying outside Wlad's reach. He didn't fight him in the wheel house like Joshua did because he doesn't have the tools to do so.

And those praising his head movement don't seem to have the faintest idea that good head movement means that you're coming back with something, and Joshua has much better counters than Fury. His pull counter is actually very good, while I haven't seen anything of the sort from Fury.

 

Of course I think Fury has a poor guard, because he has. That I even have to explain his obviously flawed fundamentals shows either how little this board knows about boxing or just the complete psychotic man crush people here have on Fury.

AJ actually had his right up from memory when Ruiz clipped him, but not quite high enough. Fury overstepped his jab and had his hand under his chin when Ngannou clipped him. Joshuas doesn't have perfect fundamentals, but better.

That Fury had a good game plan against Wlad and Wilder has nothing to do with this.

His advantages against Joshua are recovery, adapting to the situation (he seems to be a more natural fighter in that regard), perhaps also following through with a gameplan and height and reach. But not skill.

 

A pity, KINGWILDER. I thought you were a better poster than this.

Joshua never quit against Ruiz. He never verbally or physically intimated he wanted out of the fight, had already got off the cavas multiple times despite enduring a one-sided beating every time, and was on his feet and indicating that he wanted to continue at the time the ref (or his own volition) waved the fight off, to which he immediately showed disbelief and anger.

You can argue the fight was beaten out of him and that the ref was right to stop the fight when he did, but that's different from quitting. Wilder himself was in a similar situation against Fury in their second fight, clearly outgunned and unable to find his way back into the fight. What's the difference between how his night ended vs Joshua's?

As for Fury showing "considerably greater durability" how exactly? Last I checked Joshua hadn't been dropped multiple times by cruiserweights, or been rocked by non-punchers like Nicolai Firtha and Otto Wallin. He'd also taken a full force Wlad right hand and gotten up to win, been rocked by Whyte's left hook and gone on to win, and been momentarily dipped by a Povetkin uppercut and gone on to win. I'd say that shows both durability and mentality, plus heart.

And what does "objectively more skilled fighter" even mean? How are you defining that?

 

Maybe Wilder bottled it in the second fight against Fury. He certainly didn't put up much effort there.

Maybe Wlad bottled it against Fury as well. Certainly looked like it.

 

Bokaj is right. Fury's fundamental skills are average to poor for a fighter of his level. He compensates (compensated?) with elusive slippery movement, herky jerky feints and level switches, switch hitting and other tricks he's quite good at stringing together on the fly, but he has a ton of bad habits he never bothered to rectify. He frequently overreaches with the jab, squares himself up when punching, slaps and clubs with his shots, dips low after throwing exposing himself to an uppercut, and gets involved in wild brawls where he constantly puts himself in danger of being countered.

Joshua in comparison is a far better textbook boxer, which is why he has much more consistent performances in fights, and finds himself in trouble far less often. He maintains his stance, his jab is always thrown behind a high guard which he maintains for the whole of a fight, his punches are crisp and compact, he rarely overreaches or puts himself in a vulnerable position, and almost all the silly little habits he used to do (like that backwards arm swing after throwing a right hand) have gradually been ironed out. His blip against Ruiz came because he went for the kill before Ruiz was softened up, and Ruiz had the ability and handspeed to counter him and badly stun him. It was a tactical mistake rather than a lack of fundamentals that was at play there.

"This performance receives far more praise than it should."

It receives praise because Joshua was green at the time and it was a great test of his character to get knocked down by the biggest puncher in the division and get off the canvas to win. How much praise do you think it should get?

"Sure Fury’s sloppiness has been exploited by guys like Cunningham and Ngannou, but Joshua’s lack of heart, agility, a plan b, and flat footed nature have been exposed by Ruiz and Usyk."

What lack of heart was exposed by Ruiz and Usyk? He kept getting up against Ruiz even when it was clear he wasn't going to win, and against Usyk he kept fighting till the end; he was simply in there with a much better boxer who was able to match him at every step and turn up the heat when he had to. Flat-footed? Yeah, I'll give you that. He's no twinkle toes for sure.

 

Cmon... The second fight was the only one Fury was actually properly fit for.

Wilder was just genuinely that far from a legit contender that Fury didn't even need to be fully fit to beat him - that's why he (Wilder) gave the likes of Whyte a hell no and ducked like his life depended on it.

It's not that Fury is (or ever was) some godlike figure - he's a solid legit contender when at his best, but not an ATG in my book... It's just Wilder was always 90% hype.